Evidence of meeting #34 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was north.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Boerner  Director General, Central and Northern Canada Branch, Geological Survey of Canada, Department of Natural Resources
Guylaine Roy  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport
Taki Sarantakis  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Priorities Directorate, Infrastructure Canada
Donald Roussel  Director General, Marine Safety, Department of Transport

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Good morning to all the members, witnesses and guests. This is the 34th meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

Our topic is northern economic development, or more specifically, identifying the barriers and opportunities there are to advance the economic circumstances for Canada's north and for northerners.

Members, this morning we're joined by two departments. First will be Mr. David Boerner, the director general for the Geological Survey of Canada section of NRCan. He will be followed by presentations from the Department of Transport and Infrastructure Canada. We are joined today by officials from those departments: Ms. Guylaine Roy, the associate assistant deputy minister for policy, and Mr. Roussel, director general for marine safety, from Department of Transport; from Infrastructure Canada we have Mr. Taki Sarantakis, the associate assistant deputy minister for the policy and priorities directorate, and he is joined by Samantha Tattersall, director, policy and priorities directorate.

Thank you very much for joining us today.

Monsieur Lévesque, do you have a question?

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Mr. Lemieux will not be here today. He is going to be replaced by a colleague.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

We'll begin with presentations from our departmental officials.

I understand Mr. Boerner will begin with a ten-minute presentation. We'll follow that with split presentations from Madame Roy and Mr. Sarantakis of five minutes each. Then we'll go to questions from members.

Members, we will be trying to finish up by 12:30. We have a fair bit of committee business to conduct today in regard to our tour in the north in November.

Let's begin with Mr. Boerner for ten minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Dr. David Boerner Director General, Central and Northern Canada Branch, Geological Survey of Canada, Department of Natural Resources

Thank you. It's a great pleasure to be here today.

I have a small presentation in powerpoint that I would like to distribute.

My name is David Boerner. I'm a director general in the Geological Survey of Canada, which runs a number of programs related principally to the geology of Canada. These are related to natural hazards, the offshore marine areas, such things as permafrost, climate change, environmental responsibility, and also, of course, minerals and energy.

Today for the most part I'll speak about the energy and minerals program, which is part of the geo-mapping activity that is an element of the northern strategy. I'd be happy to take questions on elements of this. There may be some questions from outside my particular area, but the focus I'll try to cover today is geo-mapping for energy and minerals.

In front of you is a short deck that describes something about this program. I'm not going to speak to every slide, but I'll try to hit the highlights of what the slides mean.

The first one I'll talk about is slide 3, which indicates that Canada has quite limited mineral and energy production from the north. It shows a graph of the mineral production for 2008.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

I'll ask you to stop there momentarily, Mr. Boerner, until we get documents in front of all the members. I think they're just coming now. We're not going to take away any of your time.

While we're waiting, if our other presenters have documents in both official languages to distribute, we could do that now.

Okay. Allez-y.

11:05 a.m.

Director General, Central and Northern Canada Branch, Geological Survey of Canada, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. David Boerner

Slide 3 shows a graph of the mineral production in Canada. Obviously Canada generates a very large amount of wealth from mineral and energy production. This slide shows a comparison of the mineral production in the provinces relative to the northern territories. You can immediately see that places like Ontario and Saskatchewan produce a fair amount of wealth; some $10 billion was produced last year in those two provinces. When you look at the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, and Nunavut on the right-hand part of the slide, you can see that the production is actually quite a bit lower.

The Northwest Territories stand out at about $2 billion per year. That's almost entirely generated by the diamond industry, which is about $2.1 billion per year, so from a geological perspective, one of the questions that we've certainly asked is why there is such limited production of mineral and energy resource in the north. If I showed you an equivalent graph for energy resource production, you'd see the same thing. It would be dominated by Alberta, of course, but in fact there's very little produced in the north in a proportionate sense.

From a geological perspective, which is our domain, this doesn't make an awful lot of sense. We know there's a very large potential for mineral and energy resource in the north, and yet the production isn't there. What started us thinking about this energy and minerals geomapping program was that we asked what the deficiencies were in trying to promote those economic development opportunities through energy and minerals in the north, because if you can have a couple of diamond mines adding $2 billion a year to an economy in one of the territories, that's quite a significant change in economic circumstances for those people.

Our feeling was there weren't a lot of economic opportunities of the same magnitude available to northerners. From our perspective, some of this is related to the lack of geological knowledge in the area. I'll talk about that in a bit more detail in a second.

Slide 4 shows our estimate of geological understanding in the north represented on a map. Our question was not so much what the available information was but more whether the available information was suitable for industry in terms of making the large-scale investments they have to in exploration.

We coloured the graph two different ways. Green indicates what we thought was an area where there probably was enough information for industry to go in and invest in exploring and developing mineral resources. Pink means we thought that the information was outdated and, for the most part, inadequate for that decision-making process that companies have to face.

You can see that a fairly large area is pink. It represents probably something in the order of 2,000,000 square kilometres of the north, or probably about 60% of the land mass, where we didn't think the geological information was quite up to standard.

I think this is one of the reasons that mineral production in the north is limited; it is simply because the understanding about where to invest is quite limited.

Another one, of course, is transportation infrastructure. If you find a diamond deposit, you can extract a fair amount of wealth in a small volume and a small weight, and transportation becomes a much easier problem to solve because you can fly things in and out. On the other hand, base metals such as lead and zinc have a huge volume and a huge weight, and without an acceptable transportation infrastructure they're effectively stranded resources that won't be developed. Companies are very aware of this, of course. They make decisions based on profit, so they focus on areas where they can extract the value in a way that they can economically justify.

Another aspect in the thinking of all the industry people is, of course, the regulatory situation. They have to be sure of that. They also have to be sure of things like an available workforce in order to provide people to work in their areas.

There are myriad factors, but we certainly felt that one of the basic ones was the understanding of the potential, because if you don't understand the potential for mineral or energy resources in the north, you're unlikely to take on the economic calculations for other factors, such as the regulatory system or the workforce system or the transportation system. That was the basic rationale for the program.

Slide 5 is a bit complicated, but it shows some of our reasons for trying to do this thing. We've found from past economic studies that when we invest a dollar's worth of public money in generating geoscience information, typically industry follows up and spends about five dollars pursuing whatever opportunities are created by that knowledge. Some people misunderstand this number, so I just wanted to be a little bit clear.

Industry never makes a profit until they actually find the resources and start to develop them; by providing this information about geoscience, we basically convince industry to spend more of their hard-earned money, or some of the capital they've raised on the markets, to explore, because they believe it gives them a chance to do a better job at discovering resources.

The analogy that's often used is that the public money that is invested by governments is trying to locate the haystacks; the industry still has to go into those haystacks and find the needle, which is the real prize. That's the goal here. We believe that this kind of work actually stimulates industry to do a fair amount of additional work, and that's the base for trying to create economic opportunities in the north.

Slide 6 talks about what the program was. We think that to provide reasonable geological information over all of the pink area would probably take about ten years and, in our estimate, about $200 million. We had the authority given to us in Budget 2008 and in subsequent announcements for $100 million over five years to begin the work. This is based on a plan of trying to complete the reconnaissance mapping over ten years, but we're going to try to produce a significant part of it and do at least 50% in the first five years.

Turning to slide 7, I want to emphasize that we're not doing this in isolation. We have an advisory structure that puts a lot of technical expertise into our decision making, so that we can be sure we're doing the right kind of science in the right ways. Much of that expertise is shared with the provinces and the territories, which have geological surveys of their own. The other thing we do is listen quite heavily to members of industry, because we have to understand how they make decisions about exploration in order to provide them the information they're going to find useful. We have quite an extensive advisory structure to give that information.

At the very bottom of this slide is something we've begun that is a bit new. We have taken the view that this program needs to leave benefits in the north for northerners. We've also assumed that we don't necessarily know how to do that ourselves in the Geological Survey of Canada or in Natural Resources Canada. So we formed an advisory group of northerners and meet with them at least twice a year to ask their advice about how we can ensure that whatever benefits are created by this program stay in the north long-term and that when the program is over there are still benefits accruing to northerners. I think that's been quite a successful enterprise.

Let's turn now to slide 8. Some of the results of advice we've received from our advisory group of northerners has enhanced our ability to hire local people from communities. We've engaged up to 20 people—it's actually 24, I think, this year—including prospectors, camp assistants, cooks. We've engaged the training societies and colleges in the north to try to get more people involved in this. Part of the thinking is that if we're successful in this, industry will follow and invest in exploration programs, and that people who learn about earth sciences and geoscience and exploration would be as useful to those people who follow us as they would be to us. We're trying to stimulate some thinking that the new economy that is emerging on the horizon requires some people with skills and training to support it.

The bottom part of the slide talks about SSO. I apologize for the acronym; that's a “shared service office” in NRCan. NRCan is starting to change the way it does procurement and contracting in the north to try to involve northerners more in that process. We're actively thinking not just about the lowest price anymore; we're thinking about trying to get northerners into this business, get them aware of how government issues contracts, and make sure that we can deal with northern businesses in a way that makes them fully competitive with the rest of the country. So NRCan is taking steps to be much more supportive of this relationship and not seek purely the best business deal.

Slide 9 shows some of the results we've had from the advice of our advisory group of northerners. We've always gone in and told people what we were planning to do and asked them what information they would like from us. Now we're trying to ask them some more questions about what additional information they might be interested in. Here we have a list of some of the things people have asked us about.

They're quite interested in what's happening with respect to permafrost degradation. They also want to know about resources, hiring local people.... One group asked us about training for cooks, because they anticipated more oil companies coming into their area and wanted to provide catering services to those companies. They wanted to know how to get training to do it. Our job is not really to do that, but we've certainly put them in touch with people who can provide that training.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Mr. Boerner, we're a little over time now. If you could summarize quickly, then we'll carry on. I realize there's good information here.

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Central and Northern Canada Branch, Geological Survey of Canada, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. David Boerner

Let me go to the very last slide and say that now we have completed 18 months of this program. We're getting quite a large amount of interest from industry and we're trying to connect with other organizations, such as HRSDC and INAC and the territorial governments as well, trying to find the linkages between our program and theirs. The basic idea is the same. We think there's potential in large parts of the north, and getting ready to develop that potential is something that will benefit northerners.

Thank you for your attention.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Okay.

Thank you.

We will now move on to Ms. Roy.

11:15 a.m.

Guylaine Roy Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport

Thank you very much.

I'm with Transport Canada, and as you mentioned, both Transport Canada and Infrastructure Canada are represented here. We are two different departments, but we are in the same portfolio. We have the same deputy and the same minister.

We'll share the ten minutes we have to make sure there is more time for questions and discussion. I'll go quickly into my presentation.

It goes without saying that transportation is only one of the components of economic development. However, Canada's transportation policies and regulations have a role to play in supporting northern economic development and the other parties of the federal government's integrated northern strategy. I would like to elaborate on how Transport Canada is supporting the northern strategy, for which the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development has the lead.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Could I just caution that for the purposes of interpretation, a good tempo is preferred? If you go a little bit over, don't worry. We'll give you a little bit of extra time.

Please proceed.

11:20 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport

Guylaine Roy

I have a tendency to go fast. I'm sorry.

Marine transportation is the mode of choice and a necessity for many communities and resource developments in Canada's north. As such, the government regularly and actively engages industry stakeholders, territories and provinces, northern communities, and other federal departments on northern marine issues. Transport Canada is working to ensure that as transportation grows we have the appropriate regulatory framework in place to ensure that transportation remains safe, secure, and environmentally sustainable.

On August 1, 2009, amendments to the Arctic Waters Pollution Prevention Act came into force. These changes extended the application of the act by amending the definition of “Arctic waters” from 100 to 200 nautical miles to help ensure that ships do not pollute Canadian waters.

Transport Canada is also drafting regulations under the Canada Shipping Act to make the current voluntary vessel traffic reporting system in Canada's northern waters, called NORDREG, mandatory. These requirements are expected to be in place by the 2010 shipping season.

As in other areas of Canada, Transport Canada inspectors provide regular inspections and certification services to ensure the safety of marine and air transportation in Canada's north.

To help deter pollution from shipping in the Arctic, Transport Canada has modernized its three maritime surveillance aircraft, which are now equipped with state-of-the-art remote sensors. Transport Canada's Dash-7 flew its first mission on June 29, 2009, while en route to the Arctic for the shipping season. In total, 188 pollution patrol hours were flown in the Arctic this past summer.

11:20 a.m.

Bloc

Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Slow down a little.

11:20 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport

Guylaine Roy

These initiatives minimize the likelihood that an increase in shipping in the Arctic will put the environment at increased risk.

By proactively modernizing our regulatory regime for Arctic marine shipping, we are laying the basis for safe, secure, and environmentally sustainable growth in shipping in the coming years. We are also working with international partners to improve international standards and regulations for transportation in the Arctic. For example, in 2008 Canada took a lead role at the International Maritime Organization to update the guidelines for ships operating in Arctic ice-covered waters. The resulting polar guidelines will help improve Arctic shipping safety and environmental protection by introducing high standards for vessel construction and operation in all Arctic waters.

The government is also making investments in northern air transportation. Transport Canada administers the airports capital assistance program, which provides funding to eligible airports for capital projects that promote safety, asset protection, and operating cost reduction. Since the creation of the program in 1995, the Government of Canada has provided $22 million for capital improvements to six airports in the Northwest Territories, $10 million for three airports in the Yukon, and almost $30.9 million for 14 airports in Nunavut.

We are also working to assist northern communities in identifying their own transportation needs. For example, in July 2009 Transport Canada hosted a working session in Iqaluit that brought together federal departments, territorial governments, and regional stakeholders. Participants discussed marine transportation infrastructure priorities in the north and strategies for moving forward. They even provided an opportunity for regional stakeholders to consider the existing suite of national infrastructure programs and its potential role in helping to meet their requirements.

Climate change and the anticipated increase in resource development will have an impact on transportation and public infrastructure in the north. Transport Canada is working with the territories and northern stakeholders to prepare for these challenges. For example, through the Transportation Association of Canada, the department is working in cooperation with the provinces and territories to develop a permafrost guide, entitled “Guidelines for the Development and Management of Transportation Infrastructure in Permafrost Regions”. The guide is expected to be published and available in the spring of 2010. It will serve as a compendium of best practices, along with new and emerging technologies, that practitioners will be able to consult when evaluating the construction of new transportation infrastructure, as well as adaptation and mitigation strategies regarding the effects of climate change on infrastructure in the north.

In addition, Transport Canada, in collaboration with the three territories, will carry out a northern transportation systems assessment, which will help identify the transportation infrastructure required to support economic development in the north over the next 20 years.

Finally, the transport, infrastructure, and communities portfolio continues to make investments in the most pressing infrastructure needs identified by northern communities, including transportation. This includes funding under Infrastructure Canada's programs, which my colleague Taki can speak to.

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you very much.

Mr. Sarantakis, you have the floor.

11:25 a.m.

Taki Sarantakis Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Priorities Directorate, Infrastructure Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's a pleasure to be here today to talk about Infrastructure Canada's role in the north.

My opening remarks will be very brief to allow time for your questions.

Infrastructure Canada was created in 2002, and since that time we have developed a number of programs that have been largely national in scope, reach, and mandate, but the programs touch every community in Canada.

Through all our initiatives, the intent has been to support projects in every jurisdiction that address a number of different types of asset categories that are key to Canada's well-being, including waste and waste-water systems, public transit, local roads, prisons and broadband.

The goal over the long term has been to fund public infrastructure that supports a stronger economy, a cleaner environment, and better communities. Since budget 2009, this has been supplemented by the need for immediate economic action to stimulate Canada's economy.

Since 2002, our contributions in the north, and specifically in the three territories, have both increased and become more streamlined.

Under the Building Canada plan introduced in 2007, virtually all Infrastructure Canada's funding has flowed to the three territories through a new initiative called the provincial and territorial base funding program, or the PT base fund. Under this program, over $182 million will flow to each of the three territories. This is roughly ten times what any of the territories would have received had this program been allocated on a per capita basis.

In addition to providing more money than ever through any single program to the territories for infrastructure, this measure is also extremely streamlined and very flexible to meet the needs of the territories. For example, cost-sharing is done on the basis of a plan. Rather than funding each particular project, we request from each of the territories a capital plan, and we fund that plan on its aggregate basis rather than examining each of the projects in great detail.

In addition, this plan is funded on the basis of 75% by the federal government and 25% by the territories. This is in recognition of the lower fiscal capacity of each of the territories in the north, and also in recognition of the fact that infrastructure tends to have a higher cost base in the north, given the relatively low population densities over the wide geographic areas.

I would also note that for the territories we have a general northern infrastructure category. This ensures the adequate flexibility for infrastructure considerations unique to northern needs.

Beyond the PT base fund and in recognition of their smaller populations and greater needs, the territories are also allocated a set amount of funding under Canada's gas tax fund. In all the provinces, with the exception of Prince Edward Island, the gas tax fund is allocated on a per capita basis. However, the territories each receive a payment of $15 million per year at this time. That, again, is far in excess of their per capita allocation.

In partnership with Canada's territories and their local communities, the Government of Canada and Infrastructure Canada have accomplished a great deal in northern Canada. In the Yukon, for example, we are flowing funding under the infrastructure stimulus fund for the Top of the World Highway, and over $71 million in contribution toward the Mayo B hydro facility through budget 2009's new green infrastructure fund. In the Northwest Territories, we're funding a great deal of highway construction under the PT base fund, including the Dempster Highway, the Ingraham Trail, the Mackenzie Highway, the Liard Highway, and the Fort Resolution Highway. In Nunavut, our highlight project in the past year has been supporting repairs to the facilities for the Arctic Winter Games arena.

These are just a few illustrations of the projects we've funded throughout the territories.

With that, I'd be very pleased to take your questions.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you very much to all our presenters here today. It's very full information and of course is going to be very important for our study.

Let's now proceed to questions from members. It's seven minutes for both questions and the responses, so we'll try to keep those as succinct as possible.

Let's proceed with Mr. Bagnell for seven minutes.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Thank you for coming. I have a lot of questions, so maybe you could have short answers.

I just want to thank all your departments. You and your staff have been very helpful. You could take that back to them.

I had a university student from Ottawa ask me yesterday what consultation was done with aboriginal peoples in the north in the development of the northern strategy. It's a question for all three departments.

Guylaine, you brought up the northern strategy. Does anyone want to make a quick reply to that?

11:30 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport

Guylaine Roy

The lead department on the northern strategy is the Department of Indian Affairs. Indian Affairs has worked with various departments in terms of the support for the strategy, but in terms of the consultation on the strategy itself I think it would be better addressed by the department.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Okay. This is for you as well, Guylaine. I was at a speech on the Arctic this morning, and this chap—I have no idea who he is, but there's a lot of private sector work in the north helping communities—said that although we've put in the new pollution act, Transport Canada had very few or insufficient inspections, and that was its role. Could you explain what the role is and what you are doing?

11:30 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport

Guylaine Roy

I will ask Donald Roussel, the DG, marine safety, to respond to your question.

11:30 a.m.

Donald Roussel Director General, Marine Safety, Department of Transport

Yes, I knew this one would come to me. Thank you, Mr. Bagnell, for the question.

When we did Bill C-3 in March, we were in front of the Senate Standing Committee on Transport and Communications with the ministers, and we did answer a large number of questions on that particular front.

When it comes to pollution prevention in the Arctic, we mentioned to the SSCOTC committee that we deploy a Dash-7 airplane for the Arctic, and in Madame Roy's speech we mentioned that we had done 188 flying hours on board those planes this year. It's not just a sightseeing tour. We have enforcement officers from both the Department of the Environment and Transport Canada.

Beyond the system in the north for aerial surveillance, which is also supported by satellite imaging, we have during the seasons people who are working in Tuktoyaktuk, where they are deployed. We have also staff in Churchill when ships are there, when foreign vessels are loading grains.

So we have our staff during the seasons who are fully authorized and have the power of pollution prevention officers. But of course we go where there is shipping activity, and there are limited shipping activities during the seasons. On average, we get about 88 vessels doing roughly 188—

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Okay, that's great, thanks.

For infrastructure, I have just a quick question, because I want to get to the other questions too. You said it was a more efficient system, streamlined, but the infrastructure programs were primarily for municipalities. Some of the senior officials in the municipal association in the Yukon say the vast majority of their municipalities do not have their stimulus funding yet, and the recession's over a year old.

I assume it's the same in the other two territories, because in the list you gave, there were very few projects for municipalities. Can you tell me if that problem's going to improve pretty quickly?

11:35 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Priorities Directorate, Infrastructure Canada

Taki Sarantakis

Each of the three territories has actually exhausted their infrastructure stimulus funding, so basically the totality of what's available for the territories has been committed.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Did most of the municipalities get money, like they used to?