Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 17th, 2009

[Chief Peter Johnston]

We can be here all day if you need it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I think we're okay. We have an hour for something to eat between panels, so I think we'll manage just fine.

Let's carry on. We'll go three minutes, if we can, with Mr. Bevington, followed by Mr. Duncan and Mr. Bagnell, and then wrap up.

Mr. Bevington, for three minutes.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Just give me a brief answer on any negotiation that went on regarding CanNor, the new economic development agency. Did you participate in any way at all?

[Grand Chief Andy Carvill]

No, we have not. It was brought to our attention. We tried to get involved. We drafted a letter that was signed under CYFN letterhead but had a signature block of all the leaders that are part of CYFN, as well as the Yukon government. We did a joint letter with the premier but were not involved. However, we have received a commitment that we will be involved in the second phase of CanNor, and I was just reading an e-mail this morning where Minister Strahl's office is asking us to two submit names from CYFN to sit on the committee to go into the next phase of discussions.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I just want to ask one more question, because I have to get it in.

In the Northwest Territories, a lot of our first nations are engaged in utility projects and moving in that direction. The federal government has just invested a fairly large sum of money in a utility project. Are you guys, through the first nations, in any way involved in that project?

[Chief Peter Johnston]

No. It's primarily located in the north Yukon. I'm not too sure if they are involved, but we in the south aren't.

[Stephen Mills]

As a quick answer—and to keep myself out of conflict, I'm actually leading the assessment on that particular project for the Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Board—I know the Na-Cho Nyak Dun have been in discussions around partnership with regard to that particular utility project. You're talking about the Mayo B expansion and the federal infrastructure funding that went into that. I know there are some discussions, but I can't give you the details on them.

[Grand Chief Andy Carvill]

I would add just briefly that, at a leadership meeting, the chiefs stated that they do want to be involved, working with the other governments, whether it's the federal government or the territorial government. We definitely need to be involved in any types of discussions when it comes to energy and energy development.

[Gary Wilson]

The Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in has made an investment in the power line that was built between the Mayo hydroelectric dam and Dawson City. We made a multi-million dollar investment in that. It has good, long-term return.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bevington.

Mr. Mills, did you have something else to add?

[Stephen Mills]

I have just a 10-second comment. With the three or four mining projects currently anticipated, they're going to be looking at a capacity that's probably twice the current generation in the Yukon. When you look at some of the issues about potential for the future, there definitely is a major shortage in the generation of power.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Good. Thank you.

Now we'll go to Mr. Duncan for three minutes, followed by Mr. Bagnell.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you. I realize we're getting short on time, so I'll try to ask a brief question.

I think, Chief Johnston and Mr. Mills, you both talked about access to capital being an issue. I know you're very aware of financial issues. What is your degree of awareness of the First Nations Finance Authority, and what degree of interest do you have in that proposal? Do you think that might address your access to capital considerations, if we can leverage other source revenues in the way they are contemplating?

[Chief Peter Johnston]

I apologize. I'm not aware of the First Nations Finance Authority.

We do have mechanisms here in the Yukon that allow us the opportunity for capital. As an example, we made a submission to Aboriginal Business Canada to borrow $100,000 because we were told that we fit within the criteria. We invested $70,000 of our own money to put towards this project and at the end of the day found that we were ineligible for that funding.

So we know very well, very much, about the opportunities that are here for first nations in the Yukon. However, just the bureaucracy, the level of due diligence, and so on and so forth, that's needed to apply for a dollar is incredible. In some cases, it's easier to leverage our own money through a financial institution and go the conventional way rather than utilize the first nations opportunities out there.

[Stephen Mills]

Thank you for your question. We've accessed quite a bit of funding through other programs, but I'm not aware of that one. I'm definitely not aware of all programs out there, but there is a real line that exists between programs geared for south of 60 and north of 60. That line exists within the Department of Indian Affairs as well as in other programs. So I'm not sure. I have not heard of that myself.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Just to clarify, it's not a government program. For example, B.C. municipalities all borrow through a central borrowing authority. They all club together.

It's a municipal finance authority. This is largely a Westbank First Nation-inspired initiative that has legs. They're doing a marketing job across the country. They obviously haven't got to the Yukon yet to try to generate first nations' interest in using that vehicle. They need some federal legislative statutory and seed money before they can do a full launch, but they're rapidly getting there. So this may indeed be an avenue that would be very good for you in the future.

I know, Mr. Wilson, you wanted to comment.

[Gary Wilson]

I have done some things with Kamloops, so I have a basic understanding of it. But it's not something that the Yukon first nations have really been involved in or know much about.

Backing what Peter had to say, it's difficult sometimes for our development corporations to receive financing, but it's much more difficult for our first nations citizens to get financing if they're entrepreneurial.

We had a case in our community where a couple of young guys got the contract to provide all the garbage collection and recycling. They had a signed contract with the municipality, but at the end of the day, the bank wouldn't give them financing, even with a signed contract, because they were in a northern community and they were first nation.

So there are all sorts of barriers, not just for first nations who have money in the bank and capacity. Certainly for individual entrepreneurs it's incredibly difficult.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Duncan.

Mr. Bagnell, you have three minutes.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you. I just have one question.

Mr. Mills, we've been having these hearings for about a month, and a number of the witnesses have commented on YESAA. You're on the executive committee--you're the top executive in YESAA. You can have my three minutes to comment on YESAA's role in sustainable economic development.

[Stephen Mills]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

It depends on who you talk to, and I think there's some discussion about us appearing before your committee in Ottawa in December.

YESAA came out of the land claims agreements in the Yukon. YESAA is different from what it is in other jurisdictions, because first nations in the Yukon have self-government agreements. First nations in the NWT didn't have self-government agreements until quite recently. So the assessment bodies in those other areas also had an arm that would issue the regulatory approvals. That isn't the situation in the Yukon.

So the purpose of YESAA is to assess any project, no matter where it's located--whether it's on federal land, such as in a national park, territorial lands, or on first nations settlement lands--and issue recommendations that can mitigate the potential effects. It's a unique model that recognizes and defines traditional knowledge. It requires YESAA and our assessors to integrate both traditional and scientific knowledge in our assessments. We look at both environmental and socio-economic effects.

A five-year review was completed, not quite on time, by all three parties--first nations and federal and territorial governments. The recommendations are still working their way through as to the outcome, what's going to happen. But the purpose of that review is to improve the process, and I think there are some pretty good recommendations coming out of it.

There are definitely some valid criticisms of YESAA. Some deal with implementation and some deal with the legislative framework. Some can't be fixed, because that's what the umbrella final agreement said.

I'm not sure what else to say about YESAA. I don't want to open that door. I think we'll have more time to discuss it with you at a.... It's one that's recognized, and I think it's a good process, but it can definitely be improved.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I have just one short question.

You can just confirm this so that the committee knows that YESAA only makes recommendations, and it is to whichever government its land is on, so the only decisions are actually made by whose land it is on. If it is first nations land, they make a decision. If it is on Yukon government land, they make a decision. If it is on federal government land, they make the decisions.

[Stephen Mills]

That is correct. I'm on the executive committee. So my role with the board was to establish the process for assessment. Most assessments are done throughout the Yukon and they're for small projects. There have been over 900 projects that have been assessed through these local offices. I'm on the executive committee, and we're assessing the large projects such as the Mayo B, which was mentioned, and some of the power line projects and large mining projects. In many cases, when you look at access roads and the actual ore bodies and other things, those projects cover more than one government's land. There is also usually a federal department, such as Transport Canada or Natural Resources Canada, involved.

In many cases, we assess the projects to best mitigate the measures, no matter if it's on settlement land or on territorial land. It's generally been effective at erasing the boundaries that were created through the settlement of the agreements, and that's what its purpose is. It is to mitigate potential adverse effects.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

I have one final question. In terms of the actual land in the Yukon Territory as a whole, realizing that Yukon is far and away ahead of the other territories in terms of the governance with respect to land claim agreements—actually this goes back to Larry's question—how much of the territory is in fact the subject of a land claim settlement as opposed to what would be left then for a territorial government? Would it be fair to say, for example, in terms of the actual land space itself and for a resource...? Is there a number? Can anybody take a stab at that?

Go ahead, Chief Johnston, if you wish.

[Chief Peter Johnston]

It's all Indian land at the end of the day, as far as I'm concerned. It is 100%.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay. I set myself up for that, but specifically on the land claim agreements, though...?