Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 17th, 2009

[Chief Peter Johnston]

Tle' Nax T'awei maintains majority ownership in twelve different businesses, located through western and northern Canada, primarily here in Whitehorse. We own such things as the Coca-Cola dealership in the Yukon. We're also the Canon dealer for the north in copiers and printers. We are part owners in a hotel chain here in Whitehorse. We also own some copier companies in southern B.C., in Kelowna and Kamloops, which are helping to diversify our portfolio and to get us into different sectors within the economy. We have invested in some prime lands here in Whitehorse, which has given the Tle' Nax T'awei Council an opportunity to have a front in the community of Whitehorse.

Unfortunately, in the Yukon most of our economic base is in Whitehorse, because of its population and its status as the capital. This has caused some serious situations for us with regard to our local economy in Teslin. As a self-governing nation, we employ about 80 people, and we are the primary place to work in the Teslin community. But with the lack of an economic base in the smaller communities, we have to invest a lot of our resources in the community of Whitehorse.

The Tle' Nax T'awei group follows an approach towards business focused on pursuing and acquiring stable, prudent business. We have successful management teams in place and use performance-based compensation and extensive benefits packaging to encourage aggressive future growth from our workforce. TTI, our business arm, has approximately 95 full-time jobs and seasonal employees throughout the organization. TTI's holdings are involved in many different sectors. In the business world, we maintain an association with several major global suppliers. One of the challenges that we face as a business arm is the access to venture capital. Traditional lenders such as banks are requiring first nations to guarantee most of these loans. There are not enough opportunities for first nations governments and businesses to access government programming. We need this programming to provide substantial capital and capacity-building within our nations.

Our citizens are in dire need of private equity funds. These funds would assist us in promoting entrepreneurship and in supporting the smaller businesses we are trying to grow. Also, the access to opportunity through government contracts is minimal within the communities. Most of these contracts involve high risk and rigid tendering. They attract established businesses. This makes it difficult for first nations businesses to compete. We need more access to management and greater employment capacity.

Northern strategy needs to reflect that there are first nations lands, resources, wildlife, and jurisdiction. First nations interests need to be recognized, respected, and reflected in any northern economic study or strategy. We also need to recognize that a strong and stable economy for the north means first nations involvement at all levels. All development has to be relevant to first nations interests, principles, and values, with investment in the Tle' Nax T'awei families and community. We need healthy citizens who are going to be able to move forward in the economic world.

I want to make some points in regard to our administration of justice. We have been negotiating for 12 years towards a comprehensive justice agreement. Complementing the self-government agreement we signed with Canada and Yukon, the comprehensive agreement would allow for the establishment of a traditional justice system based on Tlingit values and customs. It provides for a Peacemaker Court and corrections, which will advance conflict resolution and adjudication of Tle' Nax T'awei laws. The AJA provides for the coexistence and strengthening of the territorial and federal system.

In April 1993 the Teslin Tlingit Council ratified a land claims and final agreement, which came into effect on February 14, 1995. The final agreement is a treaty constitutionally entrenched under section 35.3 of the Constitution Act, 1982. The agreement also recognizes a 12-year negotiation process that has reflected a host of challenges along the way and has affected the parties' ability to complete the negotiations in a timely manner.

The agreement provides us with a recognition of aboriginal human rights, greater access to justice, public confidence in the known government and justice system that is culturally relevant, an investment in family and community, and good governance. It also bridges the gap between the traditional and conventional justice systems.

At the end of the day, it provides us with accountability to not only the government, but to the community we live in. That has been lacking, since the conventional system took over the effect of our citizens. We're well aware that a lot of the challenges we face today deal with some of the social factors that our people have been plagued with over the last 100 years. We are feeling very positive and optimistic that we'll be able to conclude these negotiations so our people can move on with their right to self-determination, and have success within their lives.

With that I will conclude. I apologize for speeding things up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

That's okay, Chief. We're a little over time, but that was really good. We appreciate that.

Now let's go to Mr. Mills, the president of the Vuntut Development Corporation.

Mr. Mills, we're delighted to have you here. We'll go for five minutes. You have the floor.

[Stephen Mills, President, Vuntut Development Corporation]

Thank you.

Honourable members, chiefs, and others who are here, I wear a few different hats, but with regard to our first nation and our development corporation, I'm both working as president of our corporation and also assisting my own first nation in Old Crow in trying to implement some of the capital programs, trying to utilize some of the federal funding that's coming forward as well.

I'll give just a really brief history. The Vuntut Development Corporation is about the fourth corporation over the last two or three decades—probably three decades—in our community. The other three ended in failure, basically bankruptcy. We started this corporation in 1999 and tried a slightly different approach with strategic planning and followed one basic rule. The first basic rule of our corporation was “Do not invest in the local store as your first investment”.

Because of that, we were able to actually look elsewhere, as Chief Johnston mentioned. One of our first key investments was Air North, and that has been a very important investment for us. I believe I'm going to speak on that this afternoon as part of your transportation discussion.

It just goes to show what was occurring in aboriginal communities when it came to economic development. We knew we needed corporations to spearhead certain economic initiatives, but we weren't quite sure how to properly implement them and the necessary funding wasn't always behind them. So the failures taught us a lot in our community. It's easy to do business—or I should say it's easier to do business—in maybe more southern locales where there is higher property tax revenue, higher property values, and more opportunities. But ours is an experience of a small corporation still being successful—and I would say profitable—in a community with very limited resource development potential. It has been baby steps since 1999, ones that have allowed us to nurture our various investments, whether it's Air North, whether it's one of the top air-viewing-potential operations in the world, whether it's our heavy equipment or operations or some of the property investments we have in Whitehorse. Our corporation intends to be on the leading edge of the revitalization of the waterfront here in Whitehorse.

Now, one of the things some people have talked about is that it is hard to access funding through the different federal envelopes, and those envelopes are forever changing. I would say, though, that our corporation has been quite successful, since about 2000, in accessing federal economic development programming. It hasn't been without hitting our heads against many walls, but we have accessed funding in probably seven different initiatives, including a very substantial one around Air North's assistance in acquiring our second jet aircraft.

So there are opportunities there. There are many hoops and many hurdles, but you can work through some of those. I would say, though, that one of the things I've noticed is that from 1993—when we go back to our agreements being negotiated—I think we've slowly been losing some of the community economic development focus. So our corporation can access funding, and we have been able to, but individual entrepreneurs in our own communities find it very difficult. And it's not our role as a development corporation to do that. It's a role that exists between the first nation government and our community and the Yukon government as well as, I believe, the federal government. So we have a lot of entrepreneurs who can't get the business start-up, can't find the seed money, or can't get some of the business backup that's necessary for a good successful business.

One of the things I see is that the new Northern Economic Development Agency.... I think the money could be used elsewhere, but I also think there's a benefit to the agency, and part of this benefit may be to assist our entrepreneurs. What's still missing, though, is some of that key start-up money that I think has sort of disappeared, especially at the individual level.

Back in 1992 or 1993, there were economic development officers in almost every Yukon community, funded through economic development agreements between the Yukon and the federal government. They were of great assistance at the community level.

What we do now--and I'm sure Gary will speak to this too--is try as much as we can, through our corporation, to provide some support, but we recognize that we can only do so much as a corporation.

I have a couple of other points on our community, if I may.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You are a little over time right now. If you could just wrap up, Mr. Mills, that would be great.

[Stephen Mills]

I just want to wrap up with a couple of comments.

Our community is the only fly-in community in the Yukon. Programs such as the federal food mail program are absolutely essential to our community. I know that changes to these types of programs are being proposed, but this food mail program provides nourishment to our community at an affordable rate and allows people to have some level of discretionary income that may help them in the area of economic development.

As a closing comment on behalf of my first nation, I would like to point that out, because it's extremely important for our community. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Mr. Mills.

Certainly last, but not least, we have Gary Wilson. Gary is representing the Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in First Nation.

Mr. Wilson, you have five minutes or thereabouts.

[Gary Wilson, Representative, Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in First Nation]

Thank you.

My name is Gary Wilson. I'm the director of business development and strategic initiatives for the Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in. I work for the government, but I also serve the development corporation around many initiatives. So I wear several hats, as many of us do. I work for the Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in. They're a self-governing first nation. They've been self-governing now for 11 years. We're in Dawson City, Yukon, which is the heart of the Klondike gold rush. We have different circumstances from several other first nations communities. We have a very strong tourism industry that exists there, and of course placer mining has existed there for 100-and-some years.

I think this is one of the points I want to make, that there is a differentiation of communities in the north. Our first nation is the largest employer, at about 200 people in the community. We pay very good wages. That's why our community can afford two grocery stores; it's because the first nation exists there. I think these things are forgotten in the process, how much economic wealth we bring to communities currently and in the future.

The first nation owns and operates five businesses, and operating businesses is different from investing in businesses, as many of us know. We've invested in about another half dozen businesses here in the Yukon. So we have a mixed portfolio. We have largely no unemployment, frankly. Capacity issues for us are different from other first nations. We have very little social assistance. As a community, our housing is actually pretty good. I would say part of that is reflected in the fact that Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in has been able to bring capacity to the first nation for several years because Dawson City is actually a community people will come and live in. It's very vibrant; it has a very strong arts community and a very strong music community. So people like myself...I'm an outsider; I'm from Saskatchewan. I've worked in the United States. I spent more of my adult working life in Dawson City than anywhere else. I come back to Dawson City because there's something about it.

Having said that, on a very broad basis I think the key issue for us is that in the Yukon there's not a really good distinction between government and business. Government is so top heavy here. You asked the question earlier, and you know the number varies, but it varies between government being somewhere between 48% and 69% of the actual people who are employed in the Yukon, depending on who you talk to. And then another large percentage of businesses exist to actually serve government. They're not out there to actually produce something that other people buy; they're there because government exists. So we have a government-based economy, and most people don't want to speak to that very strongly, but because of that, we also seem to not be very—one of the key issues—strategic in our approach. As governments, we don't seem to work very well together. The territorial, federal, first nations, and municipal governments always seem to find reasons not to work collectively and partner in long-term strategies. We're unfocused in our approach to economic development. We're a territory of approximately 32,000 people and we get probably over $1 billion a year, and part of the reason why we have barriers to economic development is because collectively we can't seem to be able to figure out how to work together.

Andy stated it very well by talking about the court case, the litigation. It's always about trying to hang on to control and not figure out how to work together in order to benefit the greater good, and often, if we bring that down to the community level, it really doesn't necessarily always reflect community needs or desires.

Talking about resource development, there are some first nations communities that are not interested in having an open-pit mine in their backyard, especially if it's foisted upon them and they have to fight tooth and nail the entire way to get any sort of return for the community, or environmental benefits, or to have environmental issues dealt with appropriately.

We have all these things that have been put through land claims. YESAA is an example. It was supposed to make it easier for all of us to work together, and it really hasn't made it easier to work together; it's brought local control to a political body that, frankly, doesn't necessarily reflect first nations or community needs.

Frankly, the federal government has abdicated its responsibility through that process, and now first nations have to litigate in relation to all those issues if they want to actually stop mining projects coming into their territory, or even just to get the benefits they should from that.

Having said that--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

If you could try to summarize, Mr. Wilson, that would be great. We're a little over time.

[Gary Wilson]

That's fair enough.

Having said that, I'm going to heap a bit of praise on the federal government here. Much like Vuntut, I think the federal government has been very good to Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in. We have accessed a lot of money over the last dozen years to implement several housing programs, to make investments in businesses, and for pre-business development. I think the development of CanNor and its expanding role over time will give us a much more strategic approach.

But if I were to emphasize one key thing, it's this: how does the federal government come in and help facilitate a strategic, long-term, focused approach to economic development in the territory?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wilson, and all of our witnesses. That was well done.

We will begin the first round of questions, and every member will have five minutes.

We will start with Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Merci.

[Member speaks in Gwich'in]

I would like to thank the Ta'an and Kwanlin Dün first nations for having us on their traditional lands today.

My first question is related to land claims. Perhaps the biggest issue for aboriginal people in the Yukon, or for a lot of them, is the implementation of land claims.

Peter and Victoria, you brought up your justice file, and the Auditor General has brought up some concerns related to implementation of land claims. Perhaps you could describe it. In Yukon land claims, you have this unique, pioneering, and excellent procedure to build or take down certain powers, which you're doing in justice.

But perhaps you could describe briefly the experience you have had with that and your recommendations, because this is a huge issue that is just starting for all the first nations. Could you describe for us how that process might be improved in the future for you or other first nations who are trying to take down the powers, which constitutionally they have the right to do under the land claim?

[Victoria Fred, Lawyer, Teslin Tlingit Council]

Thank you for that question, Mr. Bagnell.

Just quickly, as we tried to make clear in our presentation on the importance of capacity, it is an important element in economic development within this jurisdiction, and partly what Teslin Tlingit is doing is trying to facilitate that via their justice negotiations, for which we've provided a handout. Maybe you'll get it later.

The handout speaks in more detail about the challenges that Teslin Tlingit dealt with in trying to achieve their administration of justice agreement, in large part because of the challenges associated with implementation policies that undermine our agreements and that are not necessarily an efficient, effective process. This affects many of the chapters, including chapter 22, and other aspects such as the justice arrangements, so we've made some recommendations that any policies that affect first nations should have first nations involvement.

You've heard across this table about the importance of government-to-government relationships and about not expending our resources on unnecessary litigation but on what is for the better good.

What we've put forward is that it's important for Canada to recognize that these agreements are with governments, and to have more accountable, transparent approaches in the way we do business, so that it provides for more productive, contributing members in a community, members who can help build self-sufficient communities such as VGFN. VGFN has identified some of the important things on the ground in providing resources to their individual members to become entrepreneurs so that we all have a stake in the success of these agreements.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Excuse me for a minute.

Sir?

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Chair, the interpreters are getting some interference that is making it hard for them to understand.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Can you repeat that?

I do not have the translation....

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Okay.

There is some interference going on right now that is making it hard for the interpreters to translate what the witness is saying.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Yes, okay. In fact the handout will be translated. We only received it in English today, which is why it has not been circulated, if I understood correctly.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

No. It's interference, noise.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Oh, interference. Pardon me. My apologies.

I apologize.

I'll leave it for now.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

They have a problem with it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay. Do you want to try it again now?

Go ahead, Ms. Fred.

[Victoria Fred]

Just to wrap up, as we had put in our presentation—and we do apologize that it doesn't have a French translation, we've tabled it and we look forward to some feedback when you get a chance to review it. Part of that presentation includes recommendations on how to improve relationships. Our respective parties to these agreements are interested in the success of these agreements. We want to work collectively in a partnership, in a government-to-government relationship, to make these agreements work. Part of the challenge we face is that there needs to be a government shift in the way we do business as a result of these agreements. So we've put forward recommendations that if there are any policies that affect first nations, whether it's economic development or if it's affecting us being accountable in accordance with our own laws, we need to have that ongoing relationship, that ongoing communication. We are interested in doing this together, and we see that there is real benefit to building strong, stable economies as a result of that.

I'll leave it with that. You have the presentation, and I do apologize for earlier.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay.

One short question, Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Okay, a short question for Grand Chief Carvill, then.

Just so Steve knows, I've written a long letter to the minister on food mail.

Grand Chief, the federal government, the Yukon government, and the city hall all own nice government buildings. Do you own a building?

And you brought up post-secondary education. With the increasing population and the increasing number of first nations students who want to go to school, I've heard that the diminishing funds related to post-secondary, at least in real levels, are getting less per student. Is that true?

[Grand Chief Andy Carvill]

On the government building, CYFN currently does not own a government building. CYFN is not a government, but we represent first nations governments that are members of the council, and we do not have a building that we can proudly call our own. We're being forced to lease at this time. We've tried for several years to work out different arrangements with the federal government and other governments to look at ways where we can do some creative thinking as to how we can get a place that we can call home.

On the post-secondary funding being diminished, it is definitely something we are working on. The funding is having a negative impact on the education of our students. There is also the increased tuition as well. With the increased tuition and post-secondary funding being diminished, it creates hardships on our people.