Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 24th, 2009

[Robert Long]

I'd like to emphasize the high cost of transportation. That loops back to our need for harbours. If we had harbours, then the cost of offloading our boats would drop down quite a bit, and this would add a level of efficiency. Again, good airports are necessary to bring fresh food in, and they have to be maintained. The higher the quality of equipment we can have at those airports, the fewer the flights that would be missed, and the cost would thereby lower for the airlines.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much. Merci, monsieur Gaudet.

That wraps up our first panel this morning. I appreciate all of our witnesses' coming and giving us tremendous information this morning for our opening panel here in Iqaluit.

We'll now suspend the meeting—let's try to make it for no more than ten minutes—and we'll resume with our next panel. We have another two witnesses coming this morning.

Thank you. The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Order, please.

We're resuming our second panel for the day in our consideration of the barriers and solutions regarding economic development of Canada's north, specifically the three territories.

For the benefit of our witnesses, Iqaluit is the third of our three stops in each of the territorial capitals. We are here to discuss specifics around the barriers and solutions related to northern economic development.

Members, we're delighted to have with us today Mr. Glenn Cousins. Glenn represents the Qikiqtani Inuit Association, and he is in the section on business development and training.

We'd also like to welcome Mr. Paul Kaludjak. Mr. Kaludjak is the president of Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.

Welcome to our panel.

As members are already aware, I understand we have interpretation available in Inuktitut. We have an interpreter with us, and we'll follow the proceedings.

We'll begin with Mr. Kaludjak. Customarily we have five minutes, but you can stretch that out somewhat if you wish.

In fact we only have two presenters here today, so unless members disagree, I think we will allow 10 minutes for each of the presentations.

To our witnesses, for the purposes of interpretation, take a pace that is comfortable. If it runs a little too quickly, we'll be happy to step in and remind you.

Anyway, let's proceed with Mr. Kaludjak for 10 minutes.

[Paul Kaludjak, President, Nunavut Tunngavik Inc.]

Ullakut.

Ten minutes in Iqaluit is about half an hour. Okay?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We'll do our best to accommodate the time we need to get the message out. Thank you.

[Paul Kaludjak]

Uplaakut.

Since you're in Iqaluit, you must take back something of the language. “Uplaakut” means good morning. Are you able to say uplaakut? So when you go back to Ottawa, you can say to the Prime Minister, uplaakut. But don't say it at night; it's “good morning”.

[Witness continues in Inuktitut with interpretation]

Good morning. My name is Paul Kaludjak, and I am president of Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to meet you again. I recall appearing before you in Ottawa last May as co-chair of the Land Claims Agreement Coalition.

NTI is the organization that represents all Nunavut Inuit. It is our responsibility to make sure that the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement is wholly implemented.

[Witness continues in Inuktitut]

[Witness continues in English]

I'm pleased to welcome you to Nunavut. We ordered this grand, mild weather for you so that you won't freeze your hands or anything like that, because we still need you in Ottawa.

As you know, I wrote the chair of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development. I understand the committee is doing a study on the federal contribution to reducing poverty in Canada. It's an important topic, and I'm pleased to see that the committee is prepared to report on this subject. But to date, this same committee has no plans to visit Nunavut; hopefully, with your visit here, you can relay this information to that committee.

We know the meaning of poverty in Nunavut. About half of the householders rely on income support programs. In about 56% of Inuit households, there is at least one person who does not have enough to eat or has concerns that they do not. We have an infant mortality rate that is three times the national average and a suicide rate amongst our young men that is about 50 times the national average. The Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development has travelled across the country and visited Whitehorse and Yellowknife, I understand. I would like to ask you all, when you go back to Ottawa, to speak to the members of that committee, and I would ask you to suggest that it is necessary for them to visit Nunavut and hear about our circumstances. It is astonishing that it is now that they decide not to visit. Hopefully this can be corrected, so they can get the real story in Nunavut.

I understand you are studying obstacles to northern economic development, and solutions. In the last year, we have seen the international economy receive its worst shakeup since the 1930s. Unfortunately, governments have not learned not to repeat the economic management mistakes of the last century.

There are many indicators that a recovery is under way. The full recovery has not yet occurred. The national unemployment rates are as high as they have ever been in about 25 years.

Government stimulus spending has been important in dealing with the recession. I'm concerned, however, that the need to deal with the deficit will eventually lead to cutbacks, which may come at a high price for Nunavut.

Overcrowding in Nunavut is a major concern. In 2004, NTI and Nunavut Housing Corporation developed a 10-year Inuit housing action plan. This identified the need for the renovation and the modernization of 1,000 existing units, the construction of 3,000 units, just to bring the level of overcrowding up to the national average, and the construction of a further 2,730 units to match the population growth at that time.

The Government of Nunavut housing budget at the time was leading to the construction of about 50 units per year. The Nunavut housing crisis has a long history and is beyond the fiscal capacity of the Nunavut government to deal with currently. It was reaching alarming proportions. It was timely in 2006 that the Government of Canada allocated an additional $200 million for Nunavut housing over three years. In 2009 a further $100 million was added for two more years—that is, to 2011. This spending is in an area where it is vitally required, and its continuation is required even as the government attempts to reduce the deficit.

Overcrowded housing is a barrier to economic development. Housing affects social conditions, health, and educational performance. It was back in 1993 that NTI and the Government of Canada signed the land claims agreement. This was important in establishing some of the foundations in which development could occur. Clear land title was established, removing the previous uncertainty, and a clear regulatory process was also established through that process.

We have heard concerns about the regulatory process in other jurisdictions, and this was the subject of a major report by Neil McCrank last year. McCrank did not find major problems in Nunavut's regulatory system. NTI endorsed all his recommendations with respect to Nunavut. Our land claims agreement has provided capital to Nunavut Trust. The earnings are what we use to support NTI and the regional organizations that you will hear from later on. Questions have been asked as well. This is how the trust has performed since the recession began last September: early in 2008 the trust market value was estimated at $1.2 billion; by early October of this year it was slightly above $1.1 billion, a decline of 8% to 9%. No decline is good news, but in the overall world market it could have been much worse.

Funding from the trust has been used to build the Inuit business sector. The Atuqtuarvik Corporation, for example, has been established as a loan and equity company with funding up to $70 million to support Inuit businesses. To the best of my knowledge, there has been only one loan made by the Atuqtuarvik Corporation that is not collectable. Also Atuqtuarvik has shares in the First Nations Bank, which will open its first Nunavut branch in the immediate future.

There has been joint investment between the Inuit of Nunavut and the Inuvialuit of the NWT. In particular, the airline Canadian North is jointly owned. Canadian North has been built by beneficiaries, but we are now facing competition from the southern air companies, such as Air Canada.

Our airline has invested in infrastructure and has provided roots to smaller communities. By contrast, it appears the major southern airlines are mainly interested in competing on some prime routes like Ottawa, Iqaluit, Edmonton, Yellowknife, or Calgary to Yellowknife. Competition is viewed as economically healthy, but subsidized competition is grossly unfair. We understand that Air Canada, a private company, may receive up to $300 million from the Canada account, which is managed by Export Development Canada. The Government of Canada will carry the risk on this loan. It is not export-oriented, and the northern airlines will face some of the competition.

One of the areas where the government has not met its obligations is article 24 of the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement. Article 24 deals with government contracting and requires the Government of Canada to develop procurement policies for all its contracting activities in Nunavut. These policies are required to be developed in close consultation with Nunavut Tunngavik Inc., NTI.

The Government of Nunavut has met this obligation, and NTI has developed an NNI policy jointly with the Nunavut government. NNI means Nunavummi Nangminiqaqtunik Ikajuuti, supporting the Nunavut new business sector. Under it, bid preferences are given to Inuit, Nunavut, and local firms. If an Inuit firm meets all applicable criteria, it will receive a bid advantage up to 21%. With the federal government, the only agreement we have in the contracting area is with the Department of National Defence for the cleanup of DEW line sites.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We're at about 13 minutes now, Mr. Kaludjak, and we appreciate you probably have more to present. If there's more content in your brief this morning, we certainly would be delighted to receive that as a submission. If you'd like to quickly summarize the last few points, I know members will be eager to get some questions in as well.

[Paul Kaludjak]

Not to minimize the questions coming forward, but I have two more pages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay. Please go ahead.

[Paul Kaludjak]

Where was I?

This agreement: minimum Inuit employment and contracting content requirements are mandatory. Usually around 70% in most cases has been achieved constantly. It is regrettable that the National Defence agreement is not seen as a model to be followed. For the rest of federal government, bid references like NNI are out and mandatory requirements like those the National Defence has established are out. This remains an unfulfilled article of the agreement.

I would like, however, to mention one area of the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement where we made progress. Article 15.3.7 of our land claims agreement recognizes the principle of adjacency, allocating fishing licences to waters adjacent to Nunavut. Fully applied, Nunavut fishers would harvest 80% to 90% of the fish in adjacent waters, but up to now, in the area of OB, only 26% of turbot are taken by Nunavut fishers.

For many years we tried to persuade the fisheries minister of the need to implement the adjacency principle. A big opportunity came in June of this year, when the Scientific Council of the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization recommended an increase to the turbot catch from Davis Strait to be split between Greenland and Canada. NTI, the Government of Nunavut, and other Nunavut interests met with Minister Shea, who announced on November 9 that 90% of the Canadian portion of the increase would be allocated to Nunavut. This involves about 1,500 tonnes of fish, and an important step for us, which we are pleased to acknowledge.

We look forward to further steps to enhance Nunavut's role in the fishing industry.

As you requested, Mr. Chairman, I would like to conclude by offering a few summary remarks.

Government is a major employer in Nunavut, and government spending is far more important here than in southern Canada. Housing expenditures are important to the economy, but also to health, social conditions, and educational achievements. The Nunavut Land Claims Agreement established the framework for the development of the territory. Our economic institutions are performing well, but facing challenges, including competition that receives financial support from the federal government. The contracting provisions of article 24 in the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement need to be fully implemented.

The recent federal turbot allocation follows the principle of adjacency under article 15 of our Nunavut Land Claims Agreement. We look forward to building on this important step. A comprehensive approach is needed to Nunavut's development. We require infrastructure, as you have seen, institutional development, financial investment, human resources development, and full implementation of the Nunavut Land Claims Agreement.

With a comprehensive approach, Nunavut will develop and we'll shift from dependency to realization of our potential.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for listening to me this morning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Kaludjak.

Would you like to introduce your colleague who's at the table with you today?

Is it Mr. Hickes?

[Paul Kaludjak]

Brad Hickes is our business development person from our department, our business department. Glenn Cousins, my cousin here, he's from the Kakivak Association, and Jeffrey Maurice is our fish officer in our department at Nunavut Tunngavik.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much for that.

I'd like to also give my compliments to Leah Idlout, who was our Inuktitut interpreter here this morning. We're delighted.

Now we'll go to Mr. Cousins, who, as I said before, is a representative here from Qikiqtani Inuit Association.

Go ahead, Mr. Cousins.

[Glenn Cousins, Representative, Business Development and Training, Qikiqtani Inuit Association]

Good morning, and thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee for taking some time to visit Nunavut and listen to what we have to say today.

Just for clarification, I was asked to participate as a representative of the regional Inuit association, specifically the Qikiqtani Inuit Association, and I'm here to do so, but primarily as a representative of their non-profit economic development organizations, which include the Kakivak Association, Kivalliq Partners in Development, the Kitikmeot Economic Development Commission, and Nunavut CEDO.

My position is with the Kakivak Association. I'm the manager of business services there and also the manager of the Nunavut CEDO.

While there are a number of topics to discuss in relation to the theme of barriers and solutions, and certainly there are reams of documentation on these topics for Nunavut, I'll focus my comments today on the aboriginal economic development programs, the delivery of those programs in Nunavut and in the rest of Inuit Nunaat, and the federal framework for aboriginal economic development.

As I'm sure you're all aware, in 2008 the federal government initiated the federal framework for aboriginal economic development process. The framework is intended to provide strategic direction and an integrated whole-of-government approach for aboriginal economic development. The Inuit community economic development organizations, or Inuit CEDOs, have been fully engaged in this process.

In Nunavut there are four Inuit CEDOs and they have joined with the Inuit CEDOs in the other three Inuit land claims regions to help establish the National Economic Development Committee for Inuit Nunaat, known as NEDCIN. This committee has also been established in partnership with INAC and other national Inuit organizations.

In Nunavut the CEDOs are integrated into the structure of the Nunavut land claims organization and provide regional service delivery for programs that support training on education, child care, youth and disabled persons, and for small and micro-business start-up and expansion. This is made possible through the aggregation of third-party delivery for HRSDC and INAC programs and funds made available through the land claims structure. So in fact, in practice, the Inuit CEDOs are achieving what the framework intends, to provide an integrated approach for economic development. So I guess from that perspective we are ahead of the game.

This approach ensures integration with land claims structures and effective use of resources, and it provides a comprehensive approach to planning and program design to benefit all communities served as opposed to an approach to planning that focuses only on a single community. This approach provides a critical mass or organizational capacity required to be effective in planning and promoting development activities, including qualified staff and professional support to clients.

The CEDOs are strategically positioned to be effective partners with other development agencies that operate at the regional level, and this in the past has been put in practice with our relationship with the economic development folks at the INAC regional office here in Nunavut. And we are seeing that now carried over into the establishment of the CanNor agency.

Through the framework process we have come to believe that the AFI, or aboriginal financial institution, model is favoured over the CEDO model, primarily because of the way the organizations function in the first nations context. This is a concern for the Inuit CEDOs in all of the Inuit land claims regions and is not reflective of the structures established for economic development within the land claims regions.

In the past, the community economic development program, CEDP, and the community support services program, CSSP, was delivered in Nunavut by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada with the advice and recommendation of the Nunavut Regional Program Management Advisory Committee, the NRPMAC. These programs are now delivered by CanNor, and we are establishing a good working relationship with CanNor and look forward to seeing this agency reach its full potential. The way these programs are used in Nunavut is to provide base funding and support funding for the Inuit CEDOs' operations and capacity development, thereby facilitating this integration-of-program-delivery approach.

Currently these programs are being considered for renovation as part of the framework process. This development represents both concerns and opportunities or barriers and solutions.

In the short term it represents a potential barrier, as these programs are currently due to expire at the end of this fiscal year. The framework and its outcomes are not expected to be concluded until well into the next fiscal year, so we anticipate or perceive that there may be a gap. It is therefore clear that an extension of the existing programs is required until the framework process and program renovation are completed; otherwise, the CEDOs will lose their institutional capacity, which will jeopardize their ability to deliver the various programs.

In the longer term, there's a need for programs such as CEDP and CSSP, or their successor programs, to be designed to effectively support the Inuit CEDOs. This represents an opportunity or a solution. From an Inuit CEDO perspective, the priority for the federal framework should be to build upon the existing regional Inuit organizational capacity to fill gaps where they exist, provide consistent program arrangements, and explore innovative approaches to meeting priority developmental needs.

The position paper prepared by the National Economic Development Committee for Inuit Nunaat includes the following key points regarding the framework: the need to consider Inuit Nunaat as one region from a federal aboriginal economic development policy perspective; the need to develop an economic development vision for Inuit Nunaat; the need for sufficient flexibility in the federal framework to allow for the implementation of program arrangements in accordance with provisions contained within the various Inuit land claim settlement agreements; the need for co-management in the area of federal AED policy and program management to reflect both the spirit and intent of the land claim settlement agreements, as well as to respect the specific obligations undertaken by the federal government; the need for the community economic development program to continue to support the development of the organizational capacity of the Inuit CEDOs; the concern that the federal framework, when it is eventually implemented, will not be clearly mandated to build upon existing Inuit and an Inuvialuit organizational capacity, as opposed to being directed to the creation of new or competing organizational program delivery structures, such as the AFIs; the concern from a program delivery point of view, which has been repeatedly and uniformly expressed by the regional Inuit organizations, that federal AED programs should be delivered through expanded external delivery arrangements with the regional Inuit associations, rather than attempt to replicate federal government departmental capacity at the regional level; the need for equitable access to programs for all regions within Inuit Nunaat; the need for equitable access to federal AED programs and services by Inuit beneficiaries living outside the settlement areas; the need for consistent, efficient, and cost-effective AED program funding arrangements between the federal government and the regional Inuit organizations responsible for delivering federal AED programs, which includes a need for multi-year flexible agreements; the need for developing jointly agreed and improved AED program tracking mechanisms and results indicators; the need for federal fiscal arrangements and AED program funding allocations that reflect the actual cost of living and doing business in Inuit Nunaat; the need to facilitate increased coordination between major project activity and CED programs and objectives; and the need for a regional approach to CED project priorities, funding allocations, and decision-making.

To sum up, the priority for the federal framework should be to build upon these initiatives and the existing regional Inuit organizational capacity to fill gaps where they exist, provide consistent program arrangements, and explore innovative approaches to meeting priority development needs through the Inuit land claims region. In part this involves the elimination of policy and program barriers that prevent these guiding principles from being full realized.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I look forward to any questions the committee may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Cousins.

Now we will begin the first round of questions from members.

So, Mr. Bagnell will start the first round of the table off with the first question.

You have five minutes.

I should add that the times are for the questions and responses, so if you can keep your responses and questions compact and compressed, that allows us to learn more here today.

Let's proceed with Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just before I proceed, I want to put on the record that Mr. Bélanger is not with us because his mother has passed away.

And here is a note for the researchers just to remind them of the good point, for our report, that Mr. Kaludjak brought up about government being an essential employer in the north, because we've heard that before, and also that you're doing some research for us on any federal subsidies to Air Canada.

[Member speaks in Inuktitut]

I'm critic for the Arctic and also member of Parliament for Yukon, so it's great to be back here again.

Paul, you'll be happy to know I've e-mailed the clerk and our member on the human resources committee and told them you're disappointed they're not coming here, and hopefully they'll get back to me. I just did that a few minutes ago.

I just wanted to ask you about Air Canada. You made a good point there. What we heard from an airline in the Yukon was that Air Canada was in competition with the northern-owned airlines and was subsidizing its flights with its vast resources, so they were really below cost—you couldn't really send flights for that. And that made it very difficult on the northern airlines that have much fewer resources and higher expenses because of their operations in the north. Are you experiencing the same thing?

[Paul Kaludjak]

Thank you for that question.

Yes. I think the announcement was that they would start in March or April, and we kind of red-flagged it because we already have pretty good competition with the existing airlines that we have in place in Nunavut and here in Iqaluit. We felt that for the two major existing airlines serving Iqaluit—First Air and Canadian North—if a major airline came in to compete, they would not have a good future because of our competition being spread out too widely over the three companies. With the high inflation of operating airlines in Nunavut, we felt that extra competition would not be welcome because we feel the danger of losing one of the airlines because of this extra competition—not now, but if you look at the future, the market would not hold that much competition in the future.

There may be something I don't know, but that's the assessment right now and especially with the privately owned companies. When somebody comes in and if they happen to go under, somebody will bail them out eventually. We don't have that insurance, I suppose, for the two airlines we have currently in Iqaluit. So that's the danger.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you.

My understanding is that the point they were making, too, was that if Air Canada put on a whole bunch more flights and there were people to ride, all the airlines would have fewer people on them and they'd all be losing money.

Glenn, I just wanted to comment that I appreciate the new name the Inuit are now using that reflects them as people of not the just the land but the land, the water, and the ice.

I have a question for Paul and Brad. Could you just elaborate on the local contracting? My understanding is there's a provision in the Nunavut land claim that says there has to be a special agreement for local contracting and we're not really fulfilling our part of the bargain in that at this time.

[Paul Kaludjak]

Thank you.

Yes, very much. I'm so grateful that you were able to ask that question, because it's an unfair practice. I maintain that we do pretty good work in the Nunavut settlement area and with our Nunavut government. We're like a pretty good marriage, I suppose.

When it comes to the federal side, there's very little, if any, acknowledgment of article 24. When it comes to awarding contracts in Nunavut or otherwise, we try to maintain it. That's the rule of the land. The three parties agreed to the claim, and they signed it. They said that they were going to do whatever it took to obey the rules of the land.

When it comes to article 24, you're talking about food mail. You're talking about government contracts for buildings and things like that. We're constantly impacted by southern contractors. On many occasions, the local contractor loses out, because they failed to be recognized by the policy of the land claims agreement.

That's something we've been saying to the federal side. Look, we have the Nunavut land claims agreement, which tries to protect and develop Inuit-owned and local companies in Nunavut, and they're overlooked all the time. Nobody pays attention to that side. If you're going to do business in Nunavut, those guys have a 21% advantage over a contract review at any time in Nunavut if it pertains to Nunavut.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We'll have to leave it there. Thank you, Mr. Bagnell and Mr. Kaludjak.

Mr. Lévesque, you have the floor.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for having us.

Tomorrow, so Wednesday, they are launching the 2010 Year of the Inuit in Ottawa. Since we might not see each other before then, I want to take this opportunity to wish you a productive year. I also hope that your demands are heard and that agreements are signed, for the betterment of the entire community.

You mentioned two airlines. Is Air North one of them?

[Paul Kaludjak]

[Witness speaks in Inuktitut]

No, it's not Air North. Canadian North and First Air are the two airlines. In fact, I'm going to Ottawa this afternoon to be part of that announcement tomorrow.

It's about both give and take. Right now the implementation of our claim is very... I don't know if I can even say it's slow. It's pretty much come to an idle. That's why we have a challenge with the federal government right now on the table to try to get it resolved. It's been either way.

We've had good years and bad years. But we can say that we're surviving in spite of the challenges we have at the social level. We're trying to get our communities properly taking part in Canada, I suppose, and taking part in developing their own communities, and with the many challenges before them, being actively healthy in terms of living conditions. We noted the housing crisis we have.

We have many difficulties. That's why over the last ten years we have had a very poor graduation rate. We even had a 75% dropout rate a few years back. That is being corrected now. The last time we checked, the dropout rate was hovering at about 50% or less, which is an improvement. We were shocked when we looked at the graduation rate. It was up to 75%. I couldn't believe it myself. I was appalled by that, and we had to do something. That's why we called on the government to overhaul the education system a few years ago. I think we're recovering that and changing to try to help our students get a better education.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have two minutes.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you.

I knew that you were partners with First Air, but I made a mistake: I said Air North when I meant Canadian North Airlines. Are you also partners with Air Inuit?

In terms of shipping perishable food items, Canadian Heritage supports the by post or mail via the air project. It is a pilot project that the federal government is thinking about discontinuing. How effective are those operations?

The pilot project is being run here, as well as in Kuujjuaq and the Yukon, I believe. In your opinion, is it cost-effective for the population and for your airlines? Canadian North Airlines and First Air both have to ship the goods in this territory and in the Yukon.

[Paul Kaludjak]

Thank you.

There was some problem. It was cutting off and on. I'm going to do the best I can to answer to the comments I got, but there's something wrong with this gadget.

In terms of Air Inuit, we are not the owners of First Air or Air Inuit. It's a separate company. We're a 50% owner of Canadian North, and the Inuvialuit region has the other 50%. There are two land claims that own that one airline together. They're totally separate from First Air and Air Inuit. They're totally two different companies. That doesn't mean that we do not talk to each other. We do communicate with the Quebec side, where Makivik is involved with First Air. It's like any of us: we still talk to each other to see how we're doing and where we can improve.

In terms of products, fresh produce, for instance, if you're talking about the high Arctic and the smaller communities, if the weather goes out or there's something wrong with the airline not getting into the community, they always have a problem with the product getting ruined along the way. For instance, bananas are not immune to the cold; they ruin right away, and things like that.

We still have those difficulties, and that's why it's really important for us to always have subsidies for Nunavut so that many of these products can get to the communities where they're required. We don't have the luxury of roads and things like that, alternate transportation to the community. There's only one during the winter, which is the airline. There is no other.