Evidence of meeting #41 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kim Pate  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Timothy McCabe  As an Individual

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

You're moving this in the form of a motion. Perhaps we could entertain that under committee business in the next hour, if there's time. It's a valid motion, because it is on today's business. But perhaps, if we have some time at the end of the next hour, we'll deal with it.

We need to switch over. We didn't have time for committee business today, but that's a question that can come before the committee, just as you've expressed it today, for their consideration.

We're going to suspend, and we'll welcome our next witness at twelve o'clock.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Members, thank you very much.

We're back on our orders of the day today, where we are resuming our consideration—and in fact a “briefing” would probably be the better word for it—on the subject of the important issue of honour of the crown.

Members will recall that when we first considered this item of business before the committee, we invited the author Timothy McCabe. At the time we considered this back in late October—I believe it was, or mid-October—Mr. McCabe was unable to join us. We were able to work out our schedules to have him join us today, and so we welcome Mr. McCabe.

As you are probably aware, Mr. McCabe, we open up with an initial presentation of up to ten minutes. That is followed by questions from members, and then we proceed through that order in the normal course of our routine motions. At this point, we'll hand the floor over to you for up to ten minutes.

Mr. McCabe, go ahead.

December 1st, 2009 / noon

Timothy McCabe As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I hope I can be of assistance in some way, though I'm sure that others who will appear before you will have much more than I to say about the actual working out of this doctrine of the honour of the crown, and also about their aspirations as to how they would like to see it evolve in the future.

I've read the transcript of your proceedings on October 8, and I see that you had a very good short introduction to the subject, courtesy of Mr. Pryce, from the federal Department of Justice.

It seems to me that the best thing I could do in just a few minutes is present a brief summary of the development and the role of the doctrine of the honour of the crown as it has been worked out by the Supreme Court of Canada.

It's important to appreciate, I think, that the doctrine as it applies to aboriginal peoples is very much the creation of the Supreme Court of Canada, and mostly in the last ten years or so. The little note that I sent to the clerk, which I expect you have, is a kind of running account of the court's shaping of the law through the cases, eventually settling on the doctrine of the honour of the crown as a key doctrine and then working out some of the important effects of the doctrine in the cases.

What I'd like to do is take a couple of minutes to take you through that document, if you have it. It begins with what the court has said about the pre-1982 circumstance in Canada. You can see that there are three short excerpts from cases in the document.

From the Sparrow case, there can't be much doubt that over the years the rights of the Indians were often honoured in the breach. We cannot recount with much pride the treatment, and so forth.

In the Marshall case, in 1999—this is the case from Nova Scotia that had to do with the taking of eels by Mr. Marshall and some of his colleagues—Justice Binnie, who wrote the majority reasons in that case, pointed out that until the enactment of the Constitution Act, 1982, the rights of the aboriginal peoples in Canada could be overridden in the same way the rights of any of us can be by competent legislation.

Then there is the Mitchell case in 2001, along the same lines: that aboriginal rights and treaty rights were vulnerable to actions essentially by Parliament, in delegated legislation, until 1982.

Then we have the Constitution Act, 1982, section 35, which is really the watershed event when we're speaking of the law of aboriginal peoples, aboriginal rights, and treaty rights in Canada. In 1982, as part of the patriation that occurred, we have our new constitutional instrument. Subsection 35(1) says:

The existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and affirmed.

The court was of course faced with the question, what does that mean in practice? I think it's important to recognize that at the time many people said things such as: “That's all very nice. The court will acknowledge that the Constitution now says that the rights of the aboriginal peoples are now recognized and affirmed and will carry on business as usual.” Some of you will recall that essentially this happened with the Bill of Rights many years ago.

But the Supreme Court didn't take that tack at all. Beginning with the Sparrow case in 1990, the court told us that it was going to apply what it called a “purposive analysis” to section 35. That means it has a purpose. It isn't just those innocuous words on the page, “the rights...are hereby recognized and affirmed”, and that's the end of it. This has a purpose; it's supposed to take us somewhere. They told us that in Sparrow.

Turning to the next item, on the second page, the Supreme Court revealed in the course of time what that purpose is. It turns out that it is reconciliation. Our law in this area is purposive, and the purpose is reconciliation. You can read those excerpts there from Van der Peet, the reconciliation of the fact that the aboriginal peoples were here before the Europeans, before other people came to these shores, so there is a need to reconcile that presence and the fact that there were existing societies and existing laws at that time with the sovereignty of the crown and with the rights and interests and aspirations of the rest of Canadian society, of which the aboriginal peoples are part.

So it's reconciliation. When you come to the Mikisew case in 2005, Justice Binnie, writing the reasons for the court, starts off with this first sentence:

The fundamental objective of the modern law of aboriginal and treaty rights is the reconciliation of aboriginal peoples and non-aboriginal peoples and their respective claims, interests, and ambitions. The management of these relationships takes place in the shadow of a long history of grievances and misunderstanding.

Beginning shortly after 1982, with the Nowegijick case in 1983, the Supreme Court begins to equip themselves and the rest of the Canadian judiciary with a series of doctrines, which in the course of time will be the means by which this reconciliation—which is the purpose of the law—is going to be achieved. They tell us that in the interpretation of treaty rights, of statues having to do with aboriginal peoples, the interpretation of the Constitution itself, we need to apply a principle of generous interpretation.

Secondly, aboriginal and treaty rights were extinguished prior to 1982. And when you just read the bare text of the constitutional provision, you wonder about all that went before. The court says that there was extinguishment of aboriginal and treaty rights only if that intention of the crown in the legislation, or whatever, was abundantly clear and plain. This is illustrated, for example, in the game and fish realm. Over the years, of course, the rights of aboriginal peoples in Canada to take game and fish had been regulated in many different ways, in terms of bag limits or seasons or means by which the fish and wildlife can be taken. There was an argument that what the Constitution recognizes and affirms are the existing aboriginal rights of the aboriginal peoples must mean existing as of April 17, 1982, with all of these attendant regulatory impingements that had occurred over the years.

The court said no, that these rights continue in their pristine form, and the fact that this regulation took place doesn't mean anything in that respect. If there had been extinguishment, we'd have to be persuaded that the intention of the crown was clear and plain in working that extinguishment.

In other doctrines, aboriginal peoples retain significant autonomy, and the federal Indian Act seeks to strike a balance between protection on the one hand, and autonomy on the other hand. Then both the aboriginal peoples' perspective on their rights and that of the common law must be accorded weight. Again, we're working through these doctrines that the court has propounded.

I have listed here that the crown has fiduciary duties judicially enforceable by private-law remedies, such as compensation, or injunction where that's important, where the crown's activity engages specific cognizable—as they say—legal interest of an aboriginal people. It's basically land interests, money interests. The crown is first cousin to a trustee. That's a cognizable Indian interest, and the crown could have fiduciary duties enforceable by private-law measures in that circumstance.

Justice Binnie helpfully adds, I think it's in the Wewaykum case, that a quasi-proprietary interest, for example reserve land, is a cognizable legal interest that there might be a fiduciary duty in relation to, but a government benefits program is not. That is not the kind of thing the government has a fiduciary duty to in relation to the aboriginal peoples.

The last two are very important. Aboriginal rights and treaty rights aresui generis, unique. That means that the court is in a position to shape those rights, to explain what they mean, to examine all of their permutations and combinations, and create law as it goes along. I don't mean to be cynical. I don't have any intention at all about being cynical, because it is in a worthy cause, by and large, but if a right is sui generis that means just wait; we're going to tell you what it means. The court has put itself in a position where it can define the nature of these rights. They are sui generis.

Then the last one, the one this committee is interested in at the moment, is the doctrine of the honour of the crown. The honour of the crown is always at stake in its dealings with aboriginal peoples, the courts have told us, and therefore the courts require that the crown act in accordance with courts' assessments of what constitutes honour in the specific circumstances of particular cases.

These last two doctrines clearly have the most potential to be worked out and expanded and shaped, the sui generis nature of aboriginal treaty rights and the honour of the crown.

On the honour of the crown, I have tried to identify here in the last page or so of this document five important ways in which the honour of the crown has been put to work as a means to achieve reconciliation.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

May I interrupt you there for a moment, Mr. McCabe?

We're at the 12-minute mark now. You have a couple of pages left here.

Is it the wish of the committee that we continue through? We only have one witness here. Shall we proceed for up to 15 minutes, or even--

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

We could shorten the question period because I think it's important for Professor McCabe to complete his presentation.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

If that is the wish, we will do that.

Go ahead, Mr. McCabe, and finish up.

12:15 p.m.

As an Individual

Timothy McCabe

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll go through these five cases quickly. The first is the justificatory framework. This is the Sparrow case in 1990. This applies where there has already been an infringement. That is, the law of the Fisheries Act or what have you allegedly infringes upon an aboriginal or treaty right. The court has established this justificatory framework. They say that Parliament, the delegated legislators, are not impotent. These things can still have an effect with respect to the rights, but you have to satisfy us, the court, that this infringement is justifiable or justified. In the course of working that out, the court makes use of this concept of the honour of the crown.

Second, the court has said that it is willing to supply the deficiencies of treaties. Many of these treaties are very informal. The later ones--the modern treaties, beginning in Quebec and going into the 1990s and beyond--obviously are not. Those things are anything but simple or informal. But many of the earlier ones are. The court has said that in order to make honourable sense of these treaties, in order that the honour of the crown be complied with, we, the court, are going to supply the deficiencies of the treaties. This is the first Marshall case, the Nova Scotia case from 1999.

Third, where no treaties yet exist, the crown has a legal duty to negotiate them. It isn't just good policy; the crown has a legal duty. The court has told us, especially since the Haida Nation case in 2004 in B.C., that this is indeed a legal duty. As you know, there are many places in Canada where there are no treaties. This is becoming less of a truism, because we have a number of recent treaties in the north and so forth. But in most of mainland British Columbia and elsewhere, that's been the case until recently.

It's often said that the very land on which we're situated right now is the subject of a land claim. There was no treaty of surrender with respect to the watershed of the Ottawa River east of Mattawa, on either side of the river. The Algonquin of Quebec and Ontario take the view that they have aboriginal title, an aboriginal rights claim. There was never any treaty with those people. There's a legal duty, a constitutional duty, one might say, to negotiate treaties in those circumstances.

The last two really go together and are about consultation. The honour of the crown requires that where activity is proposed by the crown or through the permission of the crown--it might be a grant to a private party--that might adversely impact the exercise of an aboriginal right, treaty right, or aboriginal title, the crown needs to consult with the aboriginal people affected. That's true both where the right is established, as it was in the Mikisew case--you had a treaty right that was an issue--or where the rights are not yet established, as in the Haida case, in the various B.C. cases, and in the north. They haven't been proven in court. They are not the subject of a treaty. Yet there is some proposal for mining or lumber development or what have you. During the period during which the claim is outstanding and is being negotiated, the crown has a duty to consult with the aboriginal people affected.

The last aspect of that is that in the course of consultation, the consultation will be directed toward what accommodation, if any, needs to be made in relation to the right that's asserted.

I could continue all day.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

You'll have a chance to expound on those thoughts a little further during the questions.

Let's go to the first round of questions. We'll begin with Monsieur Bélanger pour sept minutes.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Professor McCabe, you've given me the desire to consider going back to school.

12:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Timothy McCabe

I can't claim to be a professor.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Well, you may want to consider that.

This is a very good framework from which we can better understand the concept and perhaps its evolution. I'm a little intrigued about its origin. Right off the top you said that essentially.... I'm not quoting you, but you almost intimated that this was a creature of the courts, especially in the last ten years. Yet I've read some of the other documentation that's been provided to us, and I'm quoting here from a document you don't have but our researchers will recognize, “the concept should not be considered a judicial creation”.

That's the first area I'd like to explore briefly, because I have others. I certainly get the impression from Mr. Pryce, who appeared before us on October 8, that he too is of the view that this was a creature of the judiciary.

Would you accept another interpretation, that this has existed throughout the history of our land, yet what's recent is the interpretation the courts are giving it, that it doesn't take root in the courts itself, but in past treaties, past agreements, past law?

12:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Timothy McCabe

There is the Royal Proclamation of 1763. There is a long history of treaties. The problem is that through most of our history, until 1982, these things were honoured in the breach, as the courts said in Sparrow. These things were vulnerable to legislation and they were regularly affected, we'll say. If not extinguished, they were regularly affected by regulatory and other sorts of legislation.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

I understand that, and there's no disagreement that the watershed is the 1982 Charter of Rights and Freedoms, section 35. That is not a creature of the courts; that is a creature of the Parliament of Canada.

12:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Timothy McCabe

The Constitution is, yes.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Yes, so I re-ask in that light, would you agree that what's flowed, what's happened in the last few years is an interpretation of law from the tribunals, from the judiciary?

12:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Timothy McCabe

Again, in 1982 the court was faced with a very general statement, and there was a lot of discussion in 1982 as to what this would mean. In fact, there was a cynical view that it wouldn't amount to a whole lot. The court was required to put some flesh on that skeleton, as it were, and that is indeed what the court has done.

I think it is fair to say, though, that these various doctrines the court has propounded since 1982, notably the honour of the crown, is its creation. We see references to the honour of the crown much earlier in English law, for example. We're told the court will look at a crown grant, and to ensure the honour of the crown is upheld, it will carry it out in accordance with the intention of the crown.

There are threads of these things in our past legal history, but the court drew them together to meet the need it was faced with.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

All right. In the implementation of the doctrines, you mentioned there are five ways these can be implemented. The fourth one is the obligation between a period when a claim is made and is settled. I want to see if I understand some practical applications of that.

For instance, recently there was a desire from the government to sell a series of properties, nine of them, and then lease them back. Two of these were in British Columbia, I believe in Vancouver. Because of an intervention by an aboriginal community, those two properties were removed from the list of sales even though an agreement of sale had been reached. Are you familiar with that?

12:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Timothy McCabe

No, not the specifics of the case.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

My question is--well, you may not be able to answer it then--would that have been a practical application of that doctrine?

12:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Timothy McCabe

Again, I don't know the specifics of the case, but I would expect that the crown, knowing what the law is, would know that it would have to go through the process of consultation and, if warranted, accommodation. I'm sure that as these things work themselves out, on occasion the crown will decide the game isn't worth the candle in particular circumstances and will just postpone that until resolution of the claim, or won't do it at all. I'm sure that sort of thing will happen as these doctrines are worked out.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

One minute.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

An open-ended question, and perhaps other colleagues will pick it up or I'll have another chance. How do you see this evolving?

12:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Timothy McCabe

It is an open-ended question. I think the most important way we're seeing it evolving is in the two things. First of all, everyone knows now that this legacy from our past, the lack of these treaty relationships between the crown and aboriginal peoples, needs to be rectified. We're seeing it in the territories. There have been a number of achievements in Labrador, and great attempts are being made to have a similar sort of achievement in British Columbia. So there's that. Then there is this vexed problem of outstanding claims, because, as you know, they go on for a very long period of time quite often. Now there is at least a regime whereby the legitimate aspirations and interest in claims of the aboriginal peoples can be dealt with.

12:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

They're being negotiated.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you very much, Mr. Bélanger.

Now we'll continue with Mr. Lemay.

Mr. Lemay, you have seven minutes.