Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 24th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have a minute and a half left, Mr. Payne. Do your best.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

This question is for FNSI. I understand this is a new organization. Maybe you could tell me this. Are you going to be re-evaluating any of the statistics that Statistics Canada has provided, or are you going to do your own statistical analysis?

[Dr. Mark Dockstator]

To answer that question, some background is necessary, first of all, in that Statistics Canada is obviously a much larger organization. The census is a very large budget item. By comparison, FNSI is a very small organization with a very limited budget, so the chances of FNSI being involved in census-based work is very remote.

Our primary responsibility under our mandate, as I mentioned before, is to work with the other three institutions under the legislation, and with those first nations that have signed up under that legislation, to go forward.

In the larger sense, what we do after that is somewhat constrained by our budget. We have somewhat of an expansive mandate but limited resources to fill that mandate, so our approach would be to work with those who have the budget to do things like that, use their data, and then hopefully get information to first nations with the resources we have.

Again, this is something we would look at when we get to our full funding. We haven't yet reached that milestone, but when we do, those are the types of considerations we'll bring to the table.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

That's about it. There is another spot, if you want to follow up in the next slot.

We'll now go to Ms. Crowder, for five minutes.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I didn't get a chance to finish my questioning around the differences in numbers. It is a serious concern.

I have an article from January 27 that says, “Native group assails StatsCan census results, calls for review ”. It comes back down to this issue about the difference between Indian and Northern Affairs-registered first nations and Statistics Canada numbers. It looks as though there is a difference of around 200,000. It's an important issue.

In the interview that was done, you said, “StatsCan uses the broader identity figure to peg on-reserve numbers because 'it's how we've shown the data since the 1996 census'...”. This interview with the director of strategic research for Indian and Northern Affairs goes on to say that they disagree with how you're doing this. They say, “That is not how we would break the numbers down. ... I've made the point many times myself to Statistics Canada.” Then he goes on to say, “I imagine that they'll be doing changes to the way the census questions are done for the 2011 census.”

There are two issues. One is that this difference is significant, so it does lead people to distrust the numbers. The second is whether there are proposed changes for the census in 2011 to overcome the challenge of the differences in these numbers.

[Jane Badets]

We take the quality of our information quite seriously, and we certainly look to make sure each time that we have good questions and are going to get the information we need.

I still want to come back to the differences between the Indian registry and the census. They are two different data sources. There will be differences, and that's not necessarily problematic. They are just different data sources. One is administrative. It gets updated by life events. It also includes people who may be living outside of the country in institutions.

Census is a different count, in some ways: it's a snapshot of people on census day. We also count people according to their usual place of residence. This is an international concept that is used throughout the world for taking census; that is, where you spent most of your time during the past year, or where you were on census day. It could be that somebody is on the registry and associated with a band but maybe living most of their time through the year in Winnipeg and Calgary, so they are counted there in the census. Those are normal parts of these different data sources. We have known that for a long time. Indian and Northern Affairs is quite aware of it as well.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

They suggested there could be some changes to the way this information is gathered. Is that correct?

[Jane Badets]

We are working on our proposals for the 2011 census. We have, as I said, done some consultations to make sure that the questions we are asking are what people want. What we heard back was that these four questions are what we need; they are the building blocks. But different people, different organizations—Indian and Northern Affairs, for example—may want to use the questions differently, and that's fine as well, because that meets their program needs.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

A big challenge and a big concern that we hear raised fairly consistently is that you can conveniently use Indian and Northern Affairs numbers to do one particular policy or funding pot, which is outside of your purview, and then you can use Stats Canada results to do another funding pot. When you have a $200,000 difference, that could be a fair chunk of change in terms of deciding how you're going to fund. Again, that's outside of your problem, but it does lead to some concerns from the communities involved.

I just want to ask you a question about Bill C-31, about the second generation cut-off. That was the 1985 bill that reinstated women who had married outside of the community. Are there any census questions that have been asked about the numbers of first nations who've lost status because of the second generation cut-off?

I know the Clatworthy and Smith report made some projections, but has the census specifically asked?

[Jane Badets]

I'm not quite sure whether that combination of questions would get at that. Sorry--this has just got me thinking about how those questions work together.

I think maybe you can, but I'd have to get back to you on whether you could identify those people.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Okay. Am I out of time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have 15 seconds, Ms. Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I have more questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to take just a brief moment. I don't have any other speakers on the list, so I'm going to take the next government—oh, I'm sorry.

I'll defer to Madam Neville for five minutes, and I'll do the follow-up. Then I think we're finished.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

Actually Madam Crowder preempted me, because her line of questioning just now was where I was going.

I'm wondering whether you have gender-disaggregated data for everything that you have provided us. You provided us with a lot of information. If it's possible to get it by gender, by age group, by geographical area, I think that would be very helpful.

[Jane Badets]

Can I just respond to that? That's a big task. I'm not sure—

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

You don't have it readily available is what you're saying?

[Jane Badets]

Well, we do. We certainly have all the census information. We would have to know what geographical areas you needed, because we have it in a multitude of ways.

Certainly we'd be willing to provide you additional information if you could just somehow alert us to which information you would need, and especially the geographical breakdowns.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Geographically right now I would be focusing on western Canada. That would be helpful.

I, too, was going to ask the question about Bill C-31. In your consultation with stakeholders, have you been asked to see whether you can arrive at any information in terms of how Bill C-31 will affect status, what the numbers are, and what potential impact it will have? It's significant in terms of identity, ancestry, and dollars.

Have you done any work on Bill C-31? Has that been identified as an issue for you by any of the stakeholders you consult with?

[Jane Badets]

I don't know offhand. We'd have to go back and consult and see if that has come up. Offhand, I can't think of whether that has come up. Certainly, it has not in my dealings, but it could have with other people who were consulting on this.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I would certainly be interested in knowing, because it has profound implications on many levels for communities and women.

My other line of questioning is totally different. It's related to the large increase in the Métis population. I know anecdotally of a huge increase, as you had referenced, in self-identification.

Do you have any way of measuring the increase? Did you ask whether people had self-identified as Métis in the previous census and in this one?

[Jane Badets]

We haven't asked that. I'm just wondering.... Sometimes we do this in terms of cross-tabulations and looking back. We can't necessarily tell the individual person. We can go by characteristics, if the increase by characteristics is different. But we don't know at the individual level.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That's fine. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Madam Neville.

Thanks for joining us here this morning.

Just to carry on, I have a follow-up question.

For the benefit of the committee, there were documents referenced and references made to your previous appearance before this committee in June. I wonder if you would be able to provide us with the deck, because that went into more of the first nations references. We picked up some today.

Could you provide us with that deck, particularly for the benefit of new members of the committee? Those who were on in the previous Parliament will certainly have that.