Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 3rd, 2009

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and guests, for appearing today.

I just want to follow up on a question Monsieur Lemay started with regard to that court case. I haven't read the court case, but my understanding is that the reason the Supreme Court ruled seven to zero was that the only guidance they had was the Indian Act, and under the Indian Act, the department is permitted to invest trust money. My understanding was that the issue was whether this was the best investment for first nations. Clearly the first nations didn't believe that was the case.

The reason I'm bringing it back again is that you've indicated that first nations participation in this oil and gas regimen, the way it's set up, is optional. But I'm sure you're aware that there have been a number of stories in the newspapers over this last week or so about the fact that the department is looking at revamping governance processes--not reintroducing the First Nations Governance Act--so that it won't be optional. The reason I'm raising this is that there was a consultation piece that went with this Bill C-5, and there's a lot of concern that the good work in C-5 with the consultation process will not also be carried over into this other piece, and that participation won't be optional.

I wonder if you could just comment on that, because that directly impacts on the payout of royalties.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I'm not sure it really impacts on the payout of royalties.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Well, the Indian Act governs it, and if this proposed process going on is going to change the Indian Act, it could potentially impact on the way royalties are handled.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I'm not sure how it affects how royalties are going to be handled. I think the two subjects are quite different.

On the issue of consultation, for example, and the issue of how we fund first nations governance and so on, there's a forum in Alberta this week. Band managers from all of Alberta are invited to attend. They're going to sit down together and go through the issues that have been raised, not just by governments but by first nations themselves, on how we could manage the funding of the governance issues more effectively. It's not up for renewal for another year, so we have lots of time. We're going to do broad consultations on how we can do a better job of that.

Just to assure you that those consultations will be broad, the Assembly of First Nations is already involved. Also, as I mentioned, in Alberta, a year in advance, every first nation has been invited to those discussions. So there's lots of time for lots of discussion. Nothing is going to be rammed through, and my hope is that we'll all come to a consensus on what has to happen going forward.

But I don't think there's any impact on—

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Let me clarify, and I don't need you to respond to this.

If you are looking at changes in the Indian Act, there is potential to change how royalties are happening. That's all I'm saying.

Let's leave that for a minute.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

You keep saying that, but I don't think there is any impact on that.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Okay, we'll take you at your word for that.

On the regulatory process, you indicated that when it comes to the regulations, first nations will be involved in that. Is that a written agreement? I'm not doubting your word, but I've been involved in other committees, and then there have been changes of government. Is there a written agreement that that will happen? The regulations, of course, don't have to come back for parliamentary oversight.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Mr. Crowfoot may have something to add, but one of the things that happened early on was that we had consultations, of course, and a forum that the Indian Resource Council was involved in, as were first nations that were concerned about how it might move forward.

I also wrote a letter of assurance to the resource council, confirming that as we moved forward to develop those regulations, we would do so hand in hand with the resource council and first nations to make sure that their concerns were addressed. That is important, because it's often the nitty-gritty of the regulations that actually makes the act effective.

So I did put that in writing, and they had a copy of that letter before we tabled the bill.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Great.

I'll just touch on the environmental aspect. When I was looking at the environmental considerations, I saw that when no comprehensive federal regimens exist, they'll use the provincial laws. In the absence of federal regulation or regimens.... We know that in many provincial bodies the environmental process is actually being stripped away. I need only look to the province of B.C. for an example. Much of the provincial environmental oversight has been downloaded to the municipalities--for example, in development applications.

Will the federal government have some oversight in terms of the rigour around the provincial regulations?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

What is the question?

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

For example, if there is no federal regulation and it defaults to the provincial, and if the provincial is not up to a standard that we would want to see in Canada, will the federal government be taking a look at whether they should be doing something federally on those?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I wouldn't say that the provincial regulations are the only game in town, but they have proven to be the most fulsome. That's why they're regularly updated. Almost all provinces that have oil or gas or both are constantly updating their regulations and have a complete regimen on how that might work. That's why we want, as much as possible, to try to replicate those provincial regimes, because they've proven to be very effective and they cover most of the bases--for everybody. You can imagine whoever might own oil and gas rights, whether it's first nations or not, those people will want to know going in what the regulations are, how they're going to be treated, what the royalty regime is, what the environmental standards are. Everybody wants to work to whatever the rules are. In our experience, that's where the expertise has been, in the provincial regulations.

I don't think there are any gaps there.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

The reason I raise it, though, is that we have the Fort Chipewyan first nation--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Merci, Madam Crowder. We're out of time there.

Thank you very much. Now we'll proceed to Mr. Rickford for seven minutes.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I apologize to you and the minister for being a little bit late this morning.

Thank you for coming today, Mr. Minister, and the other witnesses.

I'm a little bit more familiar, coming from northwestern Ontario, with the forestry sector and the economic development opportunities out there for first nations and non-first nations communities to work together. But in reviewing Bill C-5, and obviously in hearing some of the commentary, I was struck by the economic development opportunities that arise from this particular piece of legislation. I pulled some words out of your speech this morning, Mr. Minister. I heard “training and capacity development”, which has been an emphasis in the economic statement. I heard “profitability”, “business side of oil and gas”, and “wealth creation”. It seems to me there's a whole host of economic activities arising from these amendments, and I know that economic development is a top priority for this government. It's something we've been working on across the sectors with first nations communities.

Could you comment a little bit more on how you think these changes would fit into what the government is doing for economic development in general, and then maybe distill it down to a bit of a discussion around first nations economic development?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

This is part of the puzzle. There's never a piece of legislation or any one ministry that can say it covers all the bases.

I do think there is great opportunity right now. I mentioned Saskatchewan, but it covers wherever oil and gas may be found and where first nations have said they want to exploit those resources, they think it's a good opportunity, and it gives them a revenue stream of own-source revenue that wouldn't have been there. Of course, once that happens then a lot of other things become possible. Other business opportunities flow from that and can be funded with it.

But I think the rest of the package comes from things like we announced in Budget 2009, where we've put in $200 million, for example, on skills and training for aboriginal people. We're prepared to move very aggressively in order to make sure that first nations and aboriginal people take full advantage of any business opportunities that are out there. We signed, for example, everything from the AHRDA-type programming, which is on more typical skills and training development on a case-by-case basis, to some of the ASEP programming, which involves big multilateral arrangements with provinces and big corporations about how we can train aboriginal people to take part in this industry. We've had some good successes right across the country where people are able to take advantage of that. With the training and the skills development, people are more comfortable to participate in whatever industry. You mentioned forestry, but certainly oil and gas will be the same thing. The centres of excellence are also going to help.

I think it's important that first nations go forward with confidence and don't feel that they're going through in a knowledge vacuum. They need to know that the advice they're getting is sound and based on the experience of others in like situations. I think with that combination, business loves certainty, and aboriginal business is the same way.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Could you elaborate a little more on the business side of oil and gas?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I'm not exactly sure, but in every case where proposals come forward on oil and gas, either on development or on doing the development, in other words, if people want to get involved in the actual drilling or site preparations, and certainly there's a good history of environmental cleanup, post-drilling activities, and so on, then I think it's important. I'm going to be surprised if first nations aren't increasingly going to want to take part in that part of the activity. It's not just a case of phoning up Exxon and asking them to poke a hole in the ground; it's a case of saying we're interested in doing a business deal with you and that business deal looks like this, and then coming forward with some aggressive proposals on how that might involve them, the local first nations, in everything from the set-up to the cleanup, so they get not just revenue but jobs out of it. They can set that as part of the contract, of course, going in.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

The training and the centres of excellence would look at this whole spectrum of activity in set-up to cleanup. Obviously, and almost categorically, they involve different sets of expertise with the cleanup on the environmental piece and set-up with very highly skilled trades.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I think there's great opportunity in this. Increasingly, as I mentioned, people don't look at this simply as a revenue stream, although that may certainly be primary, but they also look at it as an ability to engage in a long-term economic opportunity. I don't want to pick how it might play out, but we've seen it in everything from providing catering services to providing drilling services.

Over a quarter of the companies involved in this are first nations owned. They want a piece of the action, not only on the revenue side, but they want to be a key player in the actual companies that are doing the work. Again, I think increasingly for progressive first nations, and I would include the Indian Oil and Gas first nations in that group, they are saying it's not just about revenue, it's also about other opportunities.

As I mentioned, it's everything from managing the money that comes in, if that's where they want to go, to being part of the business that actually is involved in getting the oil and gas developed, to other interesting downstream activities, whether it be refineries or other secondary industries that supply services, and so on. All that is possible, and the government is interested in this and has programs to help make that possible across the gamut, from formal agreements with provinces, companies, and first nations to infrastructure development and other things that happen on individual reserves.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Monsieur le ministre.

We'll go on to the second round.

Mr. Bélanger, you have five minutes.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, you've used a couple of expressions this morning—“hand in hand” and “hand in glove”. I must admit I much prefer the “hand in hand” because inherently it means two wills coming together and acting in cooperation, as opposed to a glove and a hand, where one will is exercised perhaps a little more over the other.

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I have to be careful when I mix my metaphors.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Yes, one wants to be careful about that.

I want to explore, in my four minutes, the regulation-making authority that would be conferred to the executive under this legislation. Is it fairly common, because I must admit I haven't run into this very often, for a bill--therefore federal law--to grant to the executive the authority of incorporating provincial law via the regulatory route?

[Chuck Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I don't know how common it is. Does anybody have that?