Evidence of meeting #11 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was complaints.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jennifer Lynch  Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission
David Langtry  Deputy Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission
Valerie Phillips  Legal Counsel, Canadian Human Rights Commission
Michael Smith  Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Human Rights Commission

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Good afternoon, members, guests and witnesses.

Welcome to the 11th meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. Pursuant to the Order of Reference of Monday, March 29, 2010, we have on the agenda today consideration of Bill C-3, An Act to promote gender equity in Indian registration by responding to the Court of Appeal for British Columbia decision in McIvor v. Canada (Registrar of Indian and Northern Affairs).

This afternoon we welcome the Canadian Human Rights Commission. We have with us Chief Commissioner Jennifer Lynch; Deputy Chief Commissioner David Langtry; Valerie Phillips, legal counsel; and Michael Smith, senior policy analyst. I know that Mr. Smith has joined us for the last several meetings, and we appreciate the attention of the commission.

Members, we have one hour for this first section. As you saw in our notice, after our first hour, we'll be taking up further consideration of this bill.

Ms. Lynch, I know that you have probably done this before and know that we begin with a 10-minute presentation, after which we'll go to questions from members. At this committee, we do a seven-minute question-and-answer round.

Welcome to our committee. Please begin.

3:30 p.m.

Jennifer Lynch Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and honourable members.

I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to the committee's review of Bill C-3, an act to promote gender equality in the registration provisions of the Indian Act.

I would like to acknowledge that I meet you here today on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

You've already introduced my colleagues who are joining me here today. We've brought these particular colleagues because they are those who specialize in our aboriginal work and aboriginal initiatives.

Many witnesses have spoken to you concerning Bill C-3, and there appears to be consensus that the bill is a narrow legislative response to a narrow order.

In our view, the best value that the commission can bring to you as a witness is to provide you with information on the extent to which our complaint process can be used to redress allegations of discrimination under the Indian Act.

I will begin with a brief description of our role and mandate.

The Canadian Human Rights Act is 33 years old. The act established the Canadian Human Rights Commission and provides the commission with the mandate to receive and process complaints of discrimination in employment or services. The act also directs the commission to engage in any other activities that will give effect to the purpose of the act.

The purpose of the act is found in section 2, and the drafters showed enormous insight when they wrote this clause, which reads that the purpose of the act is to give effect to the principle that every individual should have the right, equal with others, to make for themselves the lives that they are able and wish to have, free from discrimination.

The Canadian Human Rights Commission is part of the larger Canadian human rights system. Every province and territory has its own form of a commission or tribunal. Our mandate is quite specific. There are 11 grounds of discrimination under the CHRA. The grounds most relevant to Bill C-3 and our discussion today are sex, age, marital status, including common-law, and family status.

Family status is a very broad ground, so I will provide a definition. Family status refers to the interrelationship that arises from bonds of marriage, kinship, or legal adoption, including the ancestral relationship, whether legitimate, illegitimate, or by adoption. It also includes the relationships between spouses, siblings, in-laws, uncles or aunts, nephews or nieces, and cousins.

The organizations under our mandate include all federal departments and agencies, plus corporations operating in federally regulated industries such as transportation, banking, and telecommunications. This means that anyone who feels that they have experienced discrimination on one of the enumerated grounds while working as an employee, or while receiving services from one of these organizations, can file a complaint with the commission.

The commission receives, screens, and processes complaints. We do not decide complaints beyond deciding whether to dismiss them or refer them for conciliation or to the fully independent Canadian Human Rights Tribunal for further inquiry and a hearing.

To give effect to the principle of section 2 of the act, the commission also works to promote and advance human rights in Canada. We perform an education and outreach function. We collaborate with workplaces to help influence a shift towards a culture of human rights, integrating human rights into daily practice. We develop research, policies and tools. And we provide advice to Parliament. An example of such advice is our 2005 special report to Parliament, A Matter of Rights, where we called for the repeal of section 67.

With that background, I turn now to the commission's ability to redress allegations of discrimination under the Indian Act.

For three decades, we had no such jurisdiction. That was changed upon the repeal of section 67 of the Canadian Human Rights Act in 2008. As you are all aware, section 67 restricted the ability of people living or working in communities operating under the Indian Act to file complaints of discrimination if the discrimination they were complaining about was related to that act. This section was included as a temporary measure in an effort to not disrupt discussions on reforming the Indian Act.

The repeal finally gave more than 700,000 aboriginal persons living under the Indian Act full access to human rights protection in Canada. A three-year transition period built into the repeal legislation means that complaints against first nations governments can only be filed starting in June 2011. However, the right to file complaints against the federal government came into effect with repeal.

We are now receiving complaints related to the federal government's administration of programs and services under the Indian Act. This has provided us with some early experience in dealing with such complaints.

Some testimony heard by this committee has pointed to the commission's complaint process as an available mechanism to remedy discrimination under the Indian Act, including any possible residual discrimination not covered by Bill C-3. My key message to you today is that this is by no means definite. The commission's ability to redress allegations of discrimination under the Indian Act remains uncertain.

Since the passage of the section 67 repeal, we have received challenges to the commission's jurisdiction in this area. For example, the commission has received several complaints related to Indian status. Three of these are similar to the McIvor case, in that they each involve Indian status and raise questions of residual discrimination following the passage of Bill C-31. We have referred all three complaints to the tribunal.

The Attorney General of Canada has given notice that it will be challenging the commission's jurisdiction, claiming that determination of status by the registrar is not a service under section 5 of the CHRA.

As l mentioned earlier, the Canadian Human Rights Act provides complaint processes only for discrimination based on employment or service. Therefore, if a court were to find that the determination of status is not a service, the commission would no longer have the authority to accept complaints related to Indian status.

By extension, this could raise similar questions as to whether or not the determination of band membership is a service. The commission is intervening in a current case before the tribunal, in the public interest, to put forward a legal analysis that indeed the determination of status is a service.

Of course, the commission cannot make the ultimate decision around what is within our jurisdiction, nor should my remarks be taken as indicating one outcome or another. It is to be expected that an issue of this complexity and importance could proceed from the tribunal to the Federal Court's trial and appeal divisions, and possibly to the Supreme Court of Canada.

In closing, I would like to make two other points.

The first is that the commission supports a comprehensive review of the Indian Act until an approach to governance that recognizes first nations' inherent right to self-government is in place, for a number of reasons.

The committee has already heard that the Indian Act has had discriminatory effects, including residual gender-based discrimination. A case-by-case, section-by-section approach to resolving discriminatory provisions of the Indian Act will be costly, confrontational and time-consuming.

Moreover, the act places the burden on complainants, who do not necessarily have access to legal resources.

Were it not for the courage, persistence, and resolve of people like Ms. Sharon McIvor, many of these long-standing issues would never be addressed.

This piecemeal approach has limited impact, particularly when large numbers of people are affected. The commission supports a proactive, systematic approach, one that would include full participation of aboriginal people, build upon existing knowledge, and lead to timely and effective change. The commission recognizes that this will take time.

My second and final point is that the commission is very interested in the government's announced plan for an exploratory process and looks forward to learning more about its scope and objectives. The commission is prepared to assist in any way it can within its jurisdiction and area of expertise.

I look forward to answering your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you very much, Ms. Lynch.

Now we'll go directly to questions from members. We'll begin with Mr. Russell. Again, I will note that it's seven minutes for the question and response.

Mr. Russell.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon to each of you. It's always good to have you in front of our committee. I thank you for the work you do on behalf of all Canadians.

Has the commission had an opportunity to look at clause 9 of Bill C-3?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Okay. Now, a number of witnesses have come before us and said that there is a relationship between this particular clause and, I guess, the government's position that.... First of all, as I understand it, clause 9 saves harmless the government from anybody suing or going after them for compensation or any residual discrimination that had arisen basically from 1985 until the passage of Bill C-3.

This generally seems to be what I understand that clause to do: “You can't sue us because we didn't really know what the hell was going on, and we didn't really acknowledge any residual discrimination, so you can't come back now after the fact, after we pass Bill C-3, and sue us for damages”.

But the government has said that maybe they can launch a complaint with the Human Rights commission, and then the witnesses say that the government fights the jurisdiction of the Canadian Human Rights Commission to hear any such complaints, so really, there is no avenue for any individual to seek a remedy or a ruling that they have been discriminated against and that they should be compensated in some way, shape, or form.

Is that a fair assessment of the situation?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission

Jennifer Lynch

May I put this in a bit of context to begin with?

If Bill C-3 is passed, the commission can continue to receive complaints regarding the Indian status provision. These could include the alleged residual discrimination referenced by witnesses before this committee, due to the historical preference given to men under the Indian Act.

We have a section in our act, paragraph 41(b), that allows us to refer a matter back to a process under another act of Parliament, which in this case is the Indian Act. Therefore, if the facts of the complaint suggest that a complainant could gain status as a result of Bill C-3, the commission may require a complainant to reapply for Indian status under the new rules, as a start.

Now, if after being dealt with under the Indian Act the complainant still believes the results of the status provision are discriminatory, he or she could return to the commission. We then look... At the current time, we would expect that the Attorney General might argue that this is not a service within the meaning of the act, and if a court decides that, it would mean that complaints could not be brought to the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

Let's say that a complaint does get to the tribunal, and the tribunal is thinking of awarding a remedy. That was the lead-in part of your question--had we looked at clause 9? We do have a concern that clause 9 would likely limit persons who benefit from Bill C-3 from successfully being awarded remedies at the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal.

It would also likely limit compensation in mediated settlements, because it would be used.... You can well imagine that, wherever we can, we engage parties in dialogue to help processes of settlement. In any kind of a mediation, if there is a section such as this, no doubt the respondent would say that they're not going to agree to remedies because there's this clause 9. In law, they don't have to.

The remedies the tribunal could.... I don't know if you'd like me to tell you about the sorts of remedies the tribunal could order, but--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

What I'm getting at is that the government says we're going to save ourselves harmless from complaints or remedies that one would seek for possible discrimination. They say that maybe you can go to the Canadian Human Rights Commission. But up to now, we've seen that when any person has gone to the Canadian Human Rights Commission the government has fought the jurisdiction of the Canadian Human Rights Commission to hear the complaint.

So the government says, “Go over to the Canadian Human Rights Commission, and once you get there, we're going to fight the Canadian Human Rights Commission to hear the complaint”. That's what the experience has been to date for people who have lodged such complaints.

3:45 p.m.

Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission

Jennifer Lynch

Right. Well, if I may briefly say...every person or organization that's party to a human rights complaint is entitled to represent their interests in the way they feel is appropriate, and the repeal of section 67 has raised complex legal issues, so it's by necessity going to be litigious. It's going to go this way. What we really need to do is get an interpretation of what is a service.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

We've had lots of arguments about section 67 around this table, and a lot of debate, and the government says what a wonderful thing it is because now we'll open up this avenue for remedy for first nations people. But every time a first nations person brings a complaint against the government or the crown before the Canadian Human Rights Commission, they say the Canadian Human Rights Commission has no jurisdiction to hear that complaint against the federal government, because we don't provide a service.

So basically all the federal government has done to this point is limit the complaints against, maybe, a band. They're trying to insulate themselves against a Canadian human rights complaint and only allow people who bring that complaint to basically lodge it against a band. It seems that they're trying to do the same thing under clause 9 of Bill C-3. That's what it seems like to me.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

You haven't read it.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Well, that's what it seems like. I'm asking somebody to clarify it. Maybe the officials will.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Duncan Conservative Vancouver Island North, BC

You haven't read it.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Mr. Russell has the floor.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

What else can it mean? I hear that this is what's being said. Maybe that's what we're here for: to clarify it.

3:45 p.m.

Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission

Jennifer Lynch

Well, in addressing--

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

We're out of time.

3:45 p.m.

Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission

Jennifer Lynch

In addressing clause 9, what I'm addressing that it limits--

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

I'm sorry, Ms. Lynch, we're out of time. You may make a brief comment on that last point. Then we'll have to go to the next speaker.

3:45 p.m.

Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission

Jennifer Lynch

To clarify my comments around clause 9, I'm talking about the inability of the tribunal, most likely, to award remedies. That would be an effect of clause 9.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you.

Now, Mr. Lemay, you have seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you.

I apologize. I did not mean any disrespect. I was a bit late because the Olympic athletes are here, and being involved in the Olympic movement, I wanted to greet them.

That said, thank you for being here. I have some very specific questions for you. Did you do an in-depth study of Bill C-3?

3:50 p.m.

Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission

Jennifer Lynch

We have not performed an in-depth study of Bill C-3.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

So you did not study the bill clause by clause?

3:50 p.m.

Chief Commissioner, Canadian Human Rights Commission