Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 6th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, members, witnesses, and guests. I'm delighted to have you back. We have a very busy two-hour meeting in front of us today.

These will be our last 45 minutes hearing from witnesses on the issue of the Aboriginal Healing Foundation. I should indicate that this study is pursuant to Standing Order 108(2).

Today we welcome Regional Chief Bill Erasmus. He is joined by Elder Joseph Williams.

I'd also like to acknowledge that we have in our gallery here today National Chief Shawn Atleo.

It's good to see you back here. We appreciate your interest in this ongoing study.

As I said, we have 45 minutes to get through this first section. These will be our last witnesses, although we will be continuing the study later this afternoon with instructions to the analysts, as well as a short segment on our consideration of the northern economic development.

Let's go directly to Regional Chief Erasmus.

I'm sure you've done this before, Chief. We'll start with a ten-minute presentation for both of you. Then we'll go directly to questions from members.

Go ahead.

[Chief Bill Erasmus, Regional Chief, Northwest Territories, Assembly of First Nations]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's a pleasure to be here.

We have a presentation. I'll make some comments, and then Elder Williams will also make some comments. We will then be prepared to take some questions. We'll also provide you with the written comments I will make.

As you said in the opening, I am the regional chief for the Assembly of First Nations. I hold the national portfolio on national families, which includes health and residential schools. As you know, the Assembly of First Nations is the national political organization representing first nation citizens in Canada. We are signatories to the Indian residential schools settlement agreement. Two of the key outcomes of the success of the Indian residential schools settlement agreement are healing and reconciliation.

The Aboriginal Healing Foundation is a credible first nation organization that continues to provide leadership and culturally appropriate community-based services--and let me stress “community-based services”--for the purposes of healing. As you are aware, a recent evaluation of the Aboriginal Healing Foundation commissioned by Indian and Northern Affairs Canada recommended that the Government of Canada renew support for the foundation, at least until settlement agreement compensation processes and commemorative initiatives are completed. The CEP operates until 2011, the IAP until 2012, and the Truth and Reconciliation Commission just received an extension. The framework for the commemoration program is not yet developed by INAC and the TRC.

The Assembly of First Nations supports this recommendation and agrees that there is an urgent need for the Aborignal Healing Foundation projects to continue. Specifically, we support a $125-million renewal over three years. INAC's evaluation report offered a number of reasons for renewing the foundation. We would like to highlight a few of those reasons, but also offer some unique observations from the perspective of the Assembly of First Nations.

First, the evaluation report noted that the compensation process administered by INAC in a commemorative initiative headed by the TRC will increase the need for health supports. The AFN agrees. We know that uptake for compensation for both the CEP and the IAP, which examines serious cases of sexual and physical abuse, are higher than originally projected. The original projections for CEP were 65,940; however, actual applications have numbered 95,458. Similarly, IAP projections were 12,500 for the entire five-year period, but more than 14,879 applications were received within the first two years.

Reconsiderations on the CEP and IAP claimants on hold create further trauma and stress for former IRS students. Reports show that these processes can trigger powerful memories, trauma, and in fact suicide. Aboriginal Healing Foundation projects had an important role to play in supporting survivors through these processes. More than one-third of AHF projects, or 36%, were supporting survivors through compensation processes. In many cases AHF projects were on the front-line of helping survivors access settlement agreement benefits. INAC's evaluation also showed that there has been a rise of 40% in AHF program enrollments. Similarly, it is expected that commemorative events offered through the TRC will increase the need for health supports, both on-site and in communities. We expect there will be a number of survivors who may not participate in TRC events, but who will be impacted indirectly, for example, through media coverage.

It has been stated before this committee that the Aboriginal Healing Foundation was never meant to be a permanent organization. This is true. We are not asking Parliament to make the Aborignal Healing Foundation a permanent organization but to consider funding the foundation as a partner to Health Canada's health support program for three more years. Our rationale is sound. All evidence suggests that the demand and the need for services is higher than we predicted and that the AHF was key in helping to address those needs.

A second point of why we support renewed funding for the foundation is that we're aware that a number of residential school survivors and their families will not qualify for support under Health Canada's Indian residential schools resolution health support program. Even though Canada is obligated to provide support for all survivors and their families under the terms of the Indian residential schools settlement agreement, it is not known what specific training prepares HC resolution health support workers for dealing with the trauma associated with disclosures of sexual abuse and violence. The lack of professional training and adequate skills may put former IRS students at risk.

To qualify for health support offered through Health Canada, survivors must be eligible to receive CEP, be resolving a claim through IAP, alternative dispute resolution, or a court process, or participating in TRC, or commemorative events. A number of survivors may not meet these requirements and may not be eligible to access services.

To this we would add that there are already long waiting lists for mental health supports in first nation communities, whether it is for Health Canada's Indian residential schools resolution health support program, or other programs. Health Canada intends to draw upon such as the national native alcohol and drug abuse program, Brighter Futures, or the national aboriginal youth suicide prevention strategy. Many of these programs are operating at capacity and do not necessarily have the expertise to deal with the type of trauma we know residential school survivors experienced.

As a third point--I know there has been some testimony to this point already—Health Canada's support programs provide specific services that are complementary but different from those offered through the AHF. From the outset, the extension of the AHF was to avoid duplicating existing services provided by or within funding from federal, provincial, or territorial governments. The scope of the services covered by Health Canada is too narrow to achieve the necessary results toward healing.

Mr. Chairman, we'd like to add that it's not a question of choosing between funding Health Canada's Indian residential schools resolution health support program or the AHF. Both programs are needed. We should be supporting a multi-level approach to health supports that casts as wide a net as possible to reduce the risk of anyone falling through the cracks. It's not about choosing one over the other.

Health Canada's IRS residential health support program offers individual services. AHF projects, by contrast, allow communities to identify and design projects that meet the collective needs and broadly engage families, leaders, youth, elders, and the whole community in the process of healing, in ways that are meaningful to their cultures and traditions.

Without the AHF's unique programs, such as the five-week family healing program, healing circles, and projects that reconnect survivors and their families with the land, their culture and languages will be lost. Communities and survivors will lose the ability to design projects tailored to their needs, and also lose the level of self-governance and capacity building in healing processes. That is not achievable through a federally run program. For example, AHF projects engage youth, create volunteerism, and encourage the growth of informal health networks.

Health Canada can fly in counsellors, but it cannot broadly engage communities in the necessary work of rebuilding their own healing capacity, something many communities lost as a result of the residential schools in the first place.

That is a key difference between the two programs and is an important distinction. This is why we say that Health Canada services will not be able to replace the services offered by AHF.

In closing, Mr. Chair, we would suggest that when Parliament made its historic apology to residential school survivors, it was a non-partisan apology. We believe that there was a sincere effort on the part of Parliament to acknowledge the past, to move forward, and to forge a new relationship with indigenous peoples. In fact, the Prime Minister noted: “You have been working on recovering from this experience for a long time, and in a very real sense we are now joining you on this journey.”

Mr. Chairman, we need you to continue walking with us on this journey. As part of that journey, perhaps the most compelling reason to renew the AHF is that we as indigenous peoples want to contribute to our own community healing. We need to put the power back in the hands of our elders, our youth, and our community members. The AHF is the only program that truly allowed first nations to address healing in this way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay.

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Just as a final comment, I want to say that the funding.... It's been five to six weeks since the news came to us. We're finding it abundantly clear that there really is no political will to continue funding the AHF. Therefore, in the best interests of our people, we ask that the federal government immediately engage us in a discussion to expand Health Canada's mandate and criteria to include community healing among the services, as well as other solutions such as expanding physical and geographic coverage, and be prepared to provide additional funds necessary for adequate and comprehensive healing services. We urgently need to start this new dialogue so we can discuss how we can broaden the scope of Health Canada's current mandate and criteria.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you.

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

We ask the assistance of this committee to facilitate and expedite that process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Chief. Meegwetch.

We have a few minutes we can allow. We do have to go to questions at about 13 minutes to the hour.

Perhaps, Elder Williams, if you had a few other things to add, we'll hear from you now. Unfortunately, Mr. Williams, it is just for a few minutes.

[Joseph Williams, Elder, Assembly of First Nations]

How many minutes, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

About three to four minutes is all we have.

I know that members will have some important questions to ask.

[Joseph Williams]

I want to thank you for allowing me to be here.

I want to start off by saying that we were brave children. To echo the words, I am a survivor. I spent 12 years in residential school. I'm 70 years old, and I suffered all the atrocities I'm sure you've heard about—all the things that are affecting a lot of the survivors who are still compelled to try to meet their needs of healing.

I'm aware of the need for healing because I personally went through that and still suffer the impacts of what happened to me as a child of six years old. I know it never goes away. I've learned that through therapy. However, I think we learn how to live with it over time. It's through programs like those that were given by the AHF that address those dire needs and the losses that we experienced as children—language, culture, the ability to parent, the ability to love. I'm sure you've heard all of this from other people. I'm hoping, as the chief said, that you can advocate for us, the thousands still out there who are suffering, those who are falling through the cracks, who are not going to be able to access those programs that are so crucial to their healing process. I, for one, can admit how difficult it is sometimes to go from day to day, just to live.

Like many of my peers, I've lost a lot of friends over the years. They didn't have the benefit of the common experience payment or the joy of being able to go to the IAP to bring some closure to their past life, as I have. I'm very cognizant of how much suffering is out there among my peers, among those people I shared those dormitories with and who were abused by those many pedophiles out there at the time, back in 1945, 1946, when I went to school.

I thank you for this time, and I wish I had more time to speak with you, to share some more thoughts I have in relation to the importance of this program and programs that need to be met at the community level.

I want to thank you for this opportunity to say these few words. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you. Meegwetch.

In fact, you will probably get an opportunity. I'm sure members will have some questions for you, Mr. Williams, as well.

Mr. Lévesque, do you have a question?

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I just want to ask the witnesses not to speak too close to the microphone because it causes interference for the interpreters.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Now let's go to Mr. Bagnell for the first question. It will be seven minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Meegwetch.

Elder Williams, Regional Chief Erasmus, National Chief Atleo, and everyone else who is here, thank you very much for coming.

As you know, I started this study because of the uproar across the country of thousands of people who went to healing projects and still need healing. I appreciate you coming to help in this. We've even had an emergency debate in the House of Commons because it's so important.

Just briefly, I'll tell you, you're the last witnesses in our study, and believe me, I've never been in a committee where things were almost so unanimous.

Mr. Erasmus, we'll help you with what you asked for at the end of your speech. We'll get into it in more detail in my questions.

Basically, all the witnesses pointed out that your programs are community-based. They're designed by aboriginal people for aboriginal people, which makes them totally different from government programs. There are thousands of participants in even one project, and there are 134 projects in 12 institutions. There are thousands who still need healing, and will for a number of years. The evaluation—which is sometimes rare in government programs—was very, very successful, of the whole program. Usually, you keep things that are so successful.

There were insufficient funds to transfer to Health Canada, if they were to even try to take over some of that. They were given only 40% of what you would have been using. Of course, their programs are totally different. Health Canada said their programs are different. The Health Canada statement said they couldn't do what the Aborignal Healing Foundation projects are doing. Yours are locally culture-sensitive, and they offer complementary programs.

So the political will may not be there from your discussions with the minister or the parliamentary secretary, but I can tell you, you couldn't sit through our committee hearings and hear things such as Elder Williams said, from a number of people, and the almost unanimous support of the Aborignal Healing Foundation, and not have political will here in this committee.

So we're going to forge on, but if the incomprehensible occurs, that this is not followed and it isn't funded for some more years to continue these valuable institutions and keep them from being disassembled, and if Health Canada tries to take on some of these things you were doing, totally different from their present skills and operations, what sort of things do you think need to be done to make that plan B a reality?

Obviously, their mandate would have to be changed. Probably the criteria for their funding would have to be broadened, and perhaps contracts with some of your best institutions, their mandate increased to allow community healing programs, and their geographical coverage increased. Maybe you could elaborate on that.

If there's more time, Mr. Williams, after Mr. Erasmus is finished, and if you want to go on to say the things that you didn't have time to say, please do so.

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Thank you for those questions.

I think what's needed is that we have to be engaged with Canada on this question. Canada can argue that it has lived up to its part of the agreement because there was an understanding that the Aborignal Healing Foundation would be funded for five years. So they lived up to that; they funded it for five years and they didn't extend it. Now the Department of Indian Affairs has to pay for the CEP, and so on, and Health Canada has to take care of the healing process. We need to sit down and talk about how that's supposed to work, because it's a real thing, and Elder Williams can talk about that.

You go into one of the meetings.... The Truth and Reconciliation Commission, for example, will be going into our communities, and they are really depending on these projects to assist them. There are 134 different communities. In four regions of the country, there are going to be absolutely no programs—in the Yukon, where you're from; in Nunavut; in Manitoba; and in P.E.I. So the Truth and Reconciliation Commission will come into a community and will begin talking about the issues and people will begin disclosing their experiences, etc., and we're afraid that if you don't have the resources there to deal with those issues on the spot and afterwards, then you really have a problem, because you're triggering people and you're not providing the kind of support they need.

So we have to talk this out. They're looking at the world differently and we're not understanding it right now; and it might mean, as I said earlier, that because our criteria are so narrow, essentially dealing with individuals and not with families and the community, they're going to have to expand the way they're looking at things. It might also mean, because of this, that they'll also have to provide additional dollars.

So we're quite prepared to do that, and I think it's in that kind of discussion where your committee may be able to assist.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

And it didn't apply to non-survivors.

We have a fiduciary responsibility for aboriginal people. That doesn't expire. If there's a house on fire and we're putting water on it and we run out of the contract water and the house is still on fire, you don't stop putting water on it. So I don't take that argument that it's expired.

Elder Williams, did you want to talk more about your personal experiences?

[Joseph Williams]

Thank you very much, yes.

I'd like to share some of my own thoughts about just what it is that an individual goes through.

I've been clean for quite a number of years, but like everybody else, I experienced that dark chapter in my life and detached myself from the experience of the sexual abuse, for example. We remove ourselves from reality, and everything is not real. What you do is that you try to numb the pain.

I was five and a half years old when this happened to me. I was pretty torn, pretty ripped. It happened to me over a period of four years, until I was nine, until the pedophile was able to find somebody who was more to his liking than me.

So over the years I behaved in a way that I'm sure some of you may understand, that we all have a death wish. I hanged myself twice and the Creator saw fit to have a friend come and cut me down, and I survived.

I went to school two miles from my home in 1945, and I didn't go home for the first seven years. We weren't allowed to go home. So I came home as a teenager, full of a new-found knowledge, which I thought was the best for me. Then I realized all too soon that it wasn't: there was something terribly wrong with my behaviour that I didn't understand. I was 14 years old. I was doing the usual stuff, getting into alcohol and fights. They were usually bigger guys than me. I often wondered why, and now I'm cognizant of that. I realize there was a death wish in everything I did.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Please don't take any offence, Elder Williams, but our time is up on this round. There may be some other questions. I appreciate that.

We now have a question from Mr. Lemay or Mr. Lévesque, of the Bloc québécois.

Mr. Lemay, you have the floor.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I confess having great difficulty asking even one question after hearing the words of Mr. Williams, an elder — I am probably not the only one around the table feeling this way. I do not really know how to approach the subject.

It is obvious, Mr. Williams, that you have experienced extreme hardship. In the area where I come from, in Abitibi, there also was an Indian residential school — that is how it was called. What you recounted has been experienced by many other people. I have no doubt that you are not the only one who went through this.

I will likely ask only one question because your testimony was eloquent enough. I read all the documents. I will not even mention money. Personally, I am more interested in the time this can take. With all due respect, Mr. Williams, you seem to me to be about 50 or 55 years old, maybe a little bit more. It took a long time before you were able to talk about your experience.

I wonder about one thing. Chief Erasmus, you might be able to answer. I do not know how long it could still take. I liked the first part of your presentation where you say that the healing has just started. In fact, I am not sure it has. Honestly, after listening to elder Williams, I am not sure it has. If you believe that healing starts with talking about it, you may be right, but one is still far from being healed. Should we not be looking at it in the longer term? I will listen to what you have to say. I do not want to take any more of your time. I am very impressed.

Elder Williams, thank you for having come here to share with the members of the committee.

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Thank you.

I don't know exactly how long it takes to heal. Maybe Elder Williams can talk a bit about his own experience.

What we're finding is that this issue has not been talked about until very recently in our communities. Part of it is because many people acted like it didn't happen. Their church denied that it happened. The Canadian government denied that it happened. Many of the provinces and territories denied that it happened. So even the individuals began to deny it or were wondering if this really happened to them. There was a lot of confusion over the years.

Since we've been dealing with it we're finding that many of these programs we've had out there.... The Healing Foundation has been there for 12 years, but in places like Nunavut, it didn't start right away. They only got assistance in the last six years.

I can talk about my area, for example. We have a project there, and this is the only one that will continue for another year. It's called the Healing Drum Society. That group has been there for about five or six years. I find that this year finally people feel comfortable with that body working with them. They're just starting to feel comfortable to speak about their issues, to see these people. They've got very good people working with them. And now the funding is cut.

That's partly why we say we're just in the beginning of dealing with this. It's very much like alcohol and drug abuse. If one person is an alcoholic, they say at least ten people around that person are affected, for a whole number of reasons. Approximately 8,000 to 10,000 students are still alive in my area in the Northwest Territories, and if that's the case, that means every person in the Northwest Territories is affected. So we have to learn how to deal with it. We don't know how to do that yet. We're just at the beginning stages. It takes a while.

Elder Williams can maybe talk about his own experience, when he started talking about this and where he is at in his journey in healing.

Thank you.

[Joseph Williams]

Thank you.

It's still really hard for many of us, as you can tell, even after all these years. We like to say we're at a point in our lives where we can function and be normal, whatever that is, but certainly in my case it's been a long journey.

I went for my IAP, I guess in 2005, so that would have made me 65 years old when I finally came to grips with needing to do something about what happened to me. Over that period I had never spoken about it to anyone. I was able to tell my wife then and my children, who saw me as this great person. They looked up to me and they respected and honoured me, so I thank them for that.

I don't know if it ever goes away, I really don't. I can't answer that. I think you're scarred for life. I'm sober today, thankfully. I thank the Creator for that. I've been sober for over 40 years. I have been able to overcome that addiction. I had to overcome other addictions as well. So when you say how long does it take, I believe for me personally that when they finally put me to rest, I'm sure then it will be over--certainly.

However, having said that, I continue to work on myself to try to be able to deal with it better, as I can do here. Six years ago I would have run out of this room when I first opened my mouth. I've made progress. I've been able to sit among total strangers and share my story.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Elder Williams and Mr. Lemay.

Now let's go to Ms. Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I want to thank Elder Williams and Chief Erasmus for coming.

I'm going to keep my comments very brief so that you have more time to speak.

There is an acknowledgement that there is continuing work required around healing, given the fact that the government chose to put roughly $69 million into Health Canada. So there's already acknowledgement there that the healing is not finished.

I have two questions for you.

One, were you ever consulted about why the choice was made between funding Health Canada versus putting that $69 million into the Aboriginal Healing Foundation? That's question number one.

Question number two: If we should go the Health Canada route, should that continue? I pulled out a report, the Non-Insured Health Benefits Program - Annual Report 2007/2008. In the Indian residential schools program in Health Canada, they talk about the fact that services aren't available in many communities and that either people will have to be flown out, transported out, or people will have to be flown in to do the treatment.

The report indicates that, overall, the medical transportation expenses, on the first nations non-insured health benefits, take up 29% of the budget, so almost a third of that non-insured health benefits budget. But in two provinces or territories.... In Manitoba it takes up 44% for transportation and in Nunavut it takes up 49%. So I guess the question I have is instead of using community-based healing, in some communities they could use half of that budget that could be allocated for healing for transportation.

Perhaps you could answer those two questions. Were you ever given a reason for the money not being put into the Aborignal Healing Foundation? And could you comment about the amount of transportation costs that will take away from the healing?

[Chief Bill Erasmus]

Thank you.

To my knowledge, we were not consulted. And you may have heard this from them when they made their presentation. We were told the Aborignal Healing Foundation.... Their understanding was that they were on solid ground with the minister, partly because they had just completed a report on the Aborignal Healing Foundation, which was in all respects a very good report. They thought they were going to be included in the budget. So, no, we were not consulted. It was made at the higher levels of decision-making, which would have been Treasury Board, the Department of Finance, or the PMO. No, we were not consulted.

We're still trying to determine how Health Canada is supposed to deal with these issues. I think they're still grappling with it, because they've been given these instructions. One of the first things they're trying to do is a gap analysis on what the impacts might be, and then proceed from there. But even if they do that, as mentioned earlier, their criteria are so narrow that they're not really going to be able to deal with the problem as required.

In terms of transportation, you're absolutely right. Before you even start, the dollar is reduced so much, how can you tackle the problem, as needed? So we agree with you.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Elder Williams, do you have anything you would like to add?