Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 16th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Good afternoon, members.

We are now starting the second meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

Welcome to our first session, where we'll be discussing committee business.

I'd also like to welcome Anita Neville to our committee. Other than Ms. Neville, all of the members of the committee were here in the second session. I understand it is not Ms. Neville's first time on this committee. She brings her experience from the 38th and 39th parliaments, if I recall.

Good to have you here, Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Members, before we start today's business--and we have two motions to consider--pursuant to an order made in the House when the committees were struck, the routine motions we adopted in the second session continue for this session. Of course, committees have the ability to make changes to them if they choose. If there are any amendments or changes to the routine motions, we should probably deal with them now before we begin any other business.

Do we have consensus to proceed with the same routine motions we adopted in the second session?

[Some honourable members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

We'll proceed on that basis.

We'll start with Madam Crowder, who has two motions.

Madam Crowder, go ahead with whichever one you wish to deal with first. We'll deal with each one individually and then go from there.

You have the floor.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I wonder if we could deal with the First Nations University first because there is some urgency around that. As I'm sure all committee members are aware, the federal government announced they would be withdrawing the $7.2 million that currently goes to the First Nations University. I'm bringing this motion before the committee so we can have an opportunity to look at the situation.

There certainly have been some problems with the First Nations University over a number of years. They recently did a significant amount of work to rectify those problems, including being in the process of developing a memorandum of understanding with the University of Regina that would have that university take over the management of their funding. It seems a solution has emerged fairly recently that would enable the First Nations University to continue to function and have some of that accountability for the funding put in place, because the University of Regina--of course, I'm assuming--has a stellar reputation around managing funds.

Part of the challenge we're facing with this is that if no agreement is reached by March 31, those students and faculty will not know their fate. I think most of us are aware that if you don't get early applications into other universities, at this late date it's going to be difficult for those students to get transferred into other universities. Certainly, for the faculty, many universities and colleges are already in the hiring process for the next school year, so it's a pretty urgent situation in terms of looking at the funding.

The second aspect of this, of course, is that we know that first nations students are underrepresented in the numbers who graduate from post-secondary institutions. The First Nations University provides a unique opportunity for students to get education that is supportive, culturally appropriate, and can deal with some of the aftermath of residential schools. A lot of these students would not have been residential school survivors themselves, but they come from family backgrounds where residential schools have been a huge factor.

I had the good fortune to talk to some of the faculty. I was in Saskatchewan a number of months ago, and they were talking about the unique situation, for example, where some of the health care graduates came from their home communities to the First Nations University; they returned to their home communities, and they are models of success in their home communities. They talk about how important that support is at the First Nations University.

So I presented this motion to the committee asking:

That the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs study the circumstances of First Nations University of Canada and call representatives from the FNUniv student association, FNUniv faculty association, Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations, University of Regina, Canadian Association of University Teachers and province of Saskatchewan to explain their roles and governance changes that have been made; and that the committee report their findings to the House.

Mr. Chair, I move that motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Ms. Crowder.

We'll go to questions from members, and we'll

Let us begin with Mr. Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chair, we are going to support this motion because it seems to us to be extremely important for the development of First Nations. I can understand the government wanting to cut the funds if errors have been made, if money has been squandered as the minister seems to be suggesting, probably with justification. It seems clear to us that errors have been made in the management of the First Nations University. Even the First Nations who are in charge of the project admit, as Grand Chief Lonechild has done, that there have been errors and there has been poor administration.

However, must we throw out the baby with the bathwater, as they say? Doing so would mean that the First Nations of Saskatchewan, and from outside the province as well, would lose the only university that provides them with a complete education and communicates to them through their culture and otherwise. A number of aboriginal communities go there, in fact, and send their students there to be educated.

I do not think that this decision puts the role of the First Nations University into question. It seems perfectly clear to me that what has come into question is the administration. Could the government not reconsider its position, given that the First Nations University will be under the administrative control of the University of Regina for the next five years? These are the questions that we are still asking and for which we have had no answer, hence our support for this motion. This is why there is some urgency. We feel that it is important to pass this motion as quickly as possible, to report to the House, and above all to hear witnesses, before March 31.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Merci, Monsieur Lemay.

Now we'll go to Mr. Duncan, and he will be followed by Mr. Russell and Mr. Payne.

Go ahead, Mr. Duncan.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd just like to say that I think the statements made by Jean Crowder, in respect of the status of the current agreement, were made with rose-coloured glasses on. I would also like to say, at the same time, that all of our statements have been consistent in stating that we'll ensure that the students are looked after.

I think we have to recognize that First Nations University has had declining enrolment. People have obviously been voting with their feet.

I have a concern about the motion from the perspective that it limits witnesses. I would say that the motion would be much more appropriate if we were to talk to people such as the chief financial officer and others who are familiar with what has really occurred in this circumstance. We need a realistic look at the circumstances of the situation.

I have another concern, which is process oriented. This committee has only so many meetings. We have a work plan. We've also had every indication that we're going to have some significant legislation. I think we keep entertaining these shorter looks at things. Generally, we've done it with consensus, but I believe that we're at a state now that if we're going to look at this before March 31, we should not do it during our regular proceedings on Tuesday and Thursday from 3:30 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. If we're really committed to this, then I think we ought to be able to sit outside of our regular committee time. If we're not prepared to do that, then I'm prepared to say that we're not really committed to the exercise.

Those are my comments at this time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Mr. Duncan, were you seeking, then, to amend the motion to add the chief financial officer of the university?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I think we should open it up. I don't want to limit the witnesses to those who are there. I'd like to ensure that we have an opportunity to designate some other witnesses, and I can't predict who they would be.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Perhaps with our other interventions this afternoon, we could explore some ideas on how that might be done.

Thank you, Mr. Duncan.

Let's go to Mr. Russell.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's good to speak to this particular motion. Our party will be supporting this particular motion, acknowledging, of course, that some people may have some concerns about the particular wording, as enunciated by Mr. Duncan. I don't believe that we would have a problem having an extra committee meeting or meetings to deal with this particular matter. There are time constraints we are up against. There are some serious repercussions from the decision of the Government of Canada to cut funding to First Nations University. There are impacts upon students, upon their families, upon faculty, and of course upon the survival of the institution itself. If its doors close, will they re-open? There have been significant efforts made. Whether they're all one would want or whether they're 100% agreeable to every particular party, we do not know. But significant efforts have been made to deal with issues of governance and accountability and to help ensure that future funding is going to be dealt with prudently.

I think this is timely. I think we should deal with it. I acknowledge, of course, that the committee in the past has indicated, as have I, that our northern economic development study must continue as well. Given the time constraints on this, given the enormity of the situation, and the fact, too, that most of the information coming out to date has been only through media reports and one-on-one conversations, I think this exemplifies just what this committee is about. We try to explore issues that are of importance to aboriginal communities, and to first nations communities, specifically, in this instance. I think it's something we can certainly support wholeheartedly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Russell.

Now we'll go to Mr. Payne, followed by Mr. Clarke and Madam Crowder.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

When I looked over the motion I was quite concerned that there was a list of witnesses here. My concern is that I'd like to see that opened up. If in fact this goes forward, I want to make sure there is a balanced view. I know there have been a lot of indications for a long period of time that the financial proceedings of that organization have not been in accordance with what we would expect.

I wanted to get that across. I think we need to make sure that if we do go ahead, it's opened up for witnesses. I want to make sure there is a balanced view in this whole process.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Payne.

Mr. Clarke.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For me, the importance of education is the utmost. I attended post-secondary education, but not at a first nations university.

I do have some concerns over the wording of the motion. With my background, accountability is the utmost, and what I'm seeing here is financial fraud. What happens affects the students as a whole--where this money is going, where has it been spent, and who benefited.

My concern is that if as a committee we do sit down and talk about this to the witnesses, what types of legal proceedings will fall from it? In that sense, will these witnesses have to be subpoenaed or interviewed in case there's a Criminal Code investigation?

Also, I'm looking at the mandate of the wording here. When you say “province of Saskatchewan”, we have to work with the province. Are we looking at the ministers? We have to look at their timeframe too, because the House is sitting in Saskatchewan right now.

I'm looking at the timeframe of March 31. We're going to have to work with the province to bring the province forward and their staff members who will have to be witnesses. We have to take that into consideration, I think.

I'm hoping Ms. Crowder can find some way that we can work with the other governing bodies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Clarke.

Just on that point, certainly witnesses have the same protections, privilege, as members of Parliament in terms of their testimony at standing committees. I don't confess to provide all the legal background behind that. These are sensitivities we would need to take into account and make sure those privileges are in place, if witnesses felt their testimony might in any way prejudice a legal proceeding in the future.

Before I go to Ms. Crowder, a couple of interventions have mentioned the issue of witnesses. Members might know that we are planning to have a subcommittee meeting immediately following this meeting, where we'll be dealing with the issue of the work plan. Ordinarily the subcommittee deals with issues both in terms of determining the work plan and schedule. It could also, as it has in the past, deal with issues around the selection of witnesses.

I offer that for the consideration of members, and then we'll go to Madam Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

That's absolutely a place where we could deal with it, but I could also amend the motion by inserting “and any other witnesses deemed necessary” after “province of Saskatchewan”. That would address that.

I think the logistics around getting witnesses, given other legislative bodies' sitting schedules, can be accommodated by having people join us by phone. I know we've done that with witnesses in the past where travel was an issue. The committee staff are very good at working out details around logistics and they could manage that.

Because it is an extraordinary situation with the timeframe we're dealing with, I certainly can't speak for the other committee members, but I would be prepared to have a meeting outside of our normal meeting schedule.

I agree it's important that we understand the scope of the problem so the committee can have some comfort level that the remedy being proposed will actually address the issues that have been raised in the past. I think it makes perfect sense to hear from other witnesses and raise some of those questions.

I'm hopeful that members of the committee will support this motion and that we can fairly quickly have a meeting to deal with this urgent and pressing issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Ms. Crowder.

As members will know, the mover can't really amend their motion.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I'll move it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you.

It's been moved by Larry Bagnell that the motion be amended to add a comma after “province of Saskatchewan”, followed by “and any other witnesses deemed necessary”. Then it would continue with “to explain their roles”, etc.

That would be the amendment, so we would now proceed to debate on the amendment.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

Could you repeat the amendment slowly?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Yes, of course, but not in French.