Evidence of meeting #3 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Colleen Swords  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Nicole Jauvin  Deputy Minister and President, Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency
Peter Traversy  Acting Chief Financial Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Good afternoon, members. This afternoon marks the third meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. Pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), we will proceed with the study of the Supplementary Estimates (C) 2009-10.

We're delighted to have back this afternoon Minister Chuck Strahl, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. He has with him as well today Madame Nicole Jauvin. Good to have you back. Nicole, of course, you know is the CEO of CanNor, the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency,

Perhaps for both of you, when the opportunity is appropriate, you can introduce your officials who are here with you today.

Before we start off, Minister, I'll just let members know that we only have one other item of business, which is some committee business dealing with some motions, so we'll dispense with our guests' presentations as quickly as we can, and once we're finished questions from members, we'll continue on with committee business.

At this point, I invite Minister Strahl to begin his comments, and then we'll move to Ms. Jauvin.

Minister Strahl.

3:30 p.m.

Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon B.C.

Conservative

Chuck Strahl ConservativeMinister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you very much.

I would introduce Colleen Swords as well, who is our associate deputy minister over at INAC. It may be her first appearance here, so I know that you'll ask her some very pointed questions later, but she is ready. She is fully ready and has been a great addition to our team over at INAC. As well, Peter Traversy is here to answer a lot of the detailed financial questions I know you'll have. The whole team is assembled nearby. We hope to answer all your questions today, and for those we can't answer of course we'll get you answers, as we've done in the past, if necessary in written form or in other appearances.

Mr. Lemay mentioned that I should practice speaking French today. Since there are no cameras here today, this is a good opportunity for me to do so. So perhaps at the end of my remarks, I can answer in French.

I do thank everyone. It's good to be back here, especially to discuss the 2009-10 supplementary estimates (C) of the Department of Indian and Affairs, which were tabled in the House of Commons on March 3. I appreciate the important role that you play here in this committee in reviewing the expenditures of the Government of Canada and of this department especially.

As was outlined clearly in the recent Speech from the Throne, our Conservative government will continue to build a stronger, healthier relationship with aboriginal people. The supplementary estimates list many initiatives that are key to this relationship and will drive progress on important issues of concern to aboriginal people and indeed to all Canadians.

As outlined in the documents now before members of the committee, these initiatives total over $224 million and effectively increase the department's budget for the current fiscal year to almost $8 billion. I know that members of this committee are familiar with many other elements of the government's agenda: legislation to protect the rights of vulnerable citizens and accelerate the resolution of specific claims, for instance, tripartite arrangements on first nations education, and on-reserve child and family services, to name just a few.

The Speech from the Throne and budget 2010 highlight a number of areas where our government will focus its efforts to achieve a real and significant difference in the lives of aboriginal people. We will work hand in hand with aboriginal communities and with provinces and territories to reform and strengthen education and to support student success and provide greater hope and opportunity.

Over the last two years, the Government of Canada has expanded its partnership with the provinces, the first nations, and Inuit through several different agreements. You'll be familiar with some of these.

In April 2008 there was an MOU between New Brunswick first nations, the Province of New Brunswick, and the Government of Canada. In April 2009 the Inuit Education Accord was signed between the Inuit of Canada, as represented by ITK, and their partner organizations and governments. In October 2009 a letter of understanding for education was announced between the Government of Canada, the Province of Manitoba, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, MKO, and the Southern Chiefs Organization, another great development.

Just last month, another MOU was signed, this time between the Assembly of Treaty Chiefs of Alberta, the Government of Alberta, and the Government of Canada. On that great occasion, I was there to sign that MOU. As the aboriginal leaders in the room said, they felt it was a very historic moment. I was delighted to sign on behalf of Canada.

We will also introduce new legislative measures to further safe drinking water and effective waste water treatment on reserve. The progress the government has achieved in this area, in collaboration with first nations across the country, is unprecedented.

In 2006, when we took office, there were 193 high-risk first nation water systems. Today, that number has been significantly reduced to 44. In addition, 21 communities were identified as priorities, which meant that the community had both a high-risk system and a drinking water advisory. Today, only 4 communities remain on that list. There is more work to be done on this and that is partly why we need this new legislative framework.

As you know, last week we introduced Bill C-3, the legislation that corrects serious gender inequality issues that currently exist under the Indian Act. I appreciate the support we're hearing about this important legislation. It really is a gender equity issue and I do think we need to get at this quickly. I appreciate many of the comments I've heard from people around the table who are saying that we need to get at this quickly.

Our Conservative government will proudly be reintroducing legislation to ensure the equitable distribution of real property assets in the event of death--this is on reserve--and to further protect the rights of aboriginal people. Again, this is particularly important to women living on reserve.

We'll take action to address the disturbing number of unsolved cases of murdered and missing aboriginal women. I am delighted to see that in the budget.

Also, we will take steps to endorse the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in a manner fully consistent with Canada's Constitution and laws.

We also will continue the work that was started in Canada's economic action plan to ensure that the north's economic and social potential is fully and sustainably developed. Specifically on that, we will be working with our northern partners to promote and build investments in the north through the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency.

We'll continue our work on opening the northern project management office, which will provide a single point of contact for clients undertaking natural resources projects in the three territories. We'll build on the successes of programs such as SINED to ensure economic diversification and encourage northerners' participation in the economy.

I'm delighted again to see allocations for the next stages of building a world-class high-Arctic research station. That will be important for everything from climate issues to the scientific underpinnings for much of what needs to be done in understanding and working in the north for years to come.

We will reform the northern regulatory regime to ensure that the region's resource potential can be developed where commercially viable, while ensuring a better process for protecting our environment.

I think I had a question today on the successor program to the food mail program to help alleviate the costs of shipping healthy foods by air to isolated northern communities. We need to have a successor program. The program we have has done a valiant job, but it needs to be renovated and brought into the 21st century. We need to bring a program renovation forward on that, and we did get allocations in the budget to make that possible.

We want to proceed to give northerners a greater say over their own future and take further steps toward territorial devolution. There are important talks that are ongoing. We will continue to vigorously defend Canada's Arctic sovereignty, map our northern resources, and fulfill our obligations under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, for example, and other national and international efforts. We want to make sure that people not only in Canada but around the world know that Canada's north is Canada's, and we intend to use it and protect it, as Canadians would expect us to, from coast to coast to coast.

Finally, we'll continue to work with other Arctic nations to settle boundary disputes that are well managed. These are kind of long standing, but they're also well managed in the sense that we have a good working relationship with other countries in those boundary areas.

I want to speak to a few of the items on the supplementary estimates themselves. On the Indian residential schools settlement agreement, $120.5 million is for the settlement allotment, and $18.9 million is to ensure that Canada meets its obligations under the agreement.

We all know the significance of the Indian residential schools settlement agreement. It was a huge milestone in the history of Canada's relationship with aboriginal people, and we're providing the resources to implement that agreement. Following on the supplementary estimates, budget 2010 has provided a further $199 million over two years to support implementation of the settlement agreement and help former students, their families, and aboriginal communities embark on the path of healing and reconciliation by ensuring timely payments and health supports that are necessary.

The items I've described today, along with the other investments included in supplementary estimates (C), will help address a wide range of challenges and issues facing northerners and aboriginal peoples. These investments support our government's efforts to work toward collaborative, sustainable solutions that benefit all Canadians.

I know that this committee has recognized that there are a number of obstacles that prevent many aboriginal people and northerners from fully sharing in and contributing to Canada's prosperity. Supplementary estimates (C) will help remove some of those obstacles. Some are monetary, some are legislative, and some are policy.

My guess is that our discussions probably won't stick entirely to the supplementary estimates themselves, but will deal with the panoply of issues that I know this committee has been seized with. So I look forward to the questions specifically on the supplementary estimates, and on other issues as people would like to raise them.

Merci.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you, Minister.

I know that your time may be limited here, so I think we'll go to questions from members now on your presentation. After you leave us we'll go to Ms. Jauvin. If that's acceptable to members, that's the way we'll proceed.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Point of order.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Yes, Mr. Bagnell.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Do you know how long the minister will be here? We might have to bring him back.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Usually an hour is typical.

Minister, are you okay with staying for one hour from the time we began--4:30?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

It's almost 3:45 now, so can he stay until 4:40?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Chuck Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

Let's give her a whirl and—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Let's see how we do. We'll do the best we can.

Let's begin now with questions from members. We will have a seven-minute round for each of the parties on the first round. Then we'll go through the normal routine motions and allocations as we agreed. It will be a five-minute round for both the question and the response, so please be judicious in your time to allow the minister to get his response out.

Let's go to Mr. Russell for seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Mr. Minister. It's good to have you with us again. I appreciate your comments, particularly with the fact that you're opening up the scope of any possible questions and subject matter that we can bring before you.

I know you discussed education in your remarks. I want to focus on a particular issue that has certainly been the matter of some attention for a lot of people over the last few months, and that is the First Nations University. You have raised issues of accountability and transparency, and I believe that all members at this committee share your concerns. We know there have been challenges in the past, but I think it would be remiss not to say that there have also been some successes, like the over 3,000 graduates who have come out of the First Nations University, alumni like Perry Bellegarde, who ran for national chief and who was chief of the FSIN. And many others have become doctors and lawyers and have gone into almost every profession and made remarkable contributions to their communities and to Canada.

On the situation of accountability, there have been changes. I think you should agree that there have been some changes. There's been a change in the board of governors. There's been a change in the chief financial officer. There's been a sense and certainly a strong indication from the University of Regina that they are willing now to become involved in this, to provide administrative oversight, and to allow this institution to continue. So there have been changes. I think it would be wrong for anybody to make an assumption that there have been no changes, that even if it is a last-ditch effort, people are making a sincere effort to save this institution.

Is there any scenario, Minister, that you can envision that would allow First Nations University to continue, this unique and historical institution to continue, and to do some good work for first nations students? As you know, if the funding is cut off, it closes down. Some of those who are pursuing higher education now will not go back to pursue higher education. So I ask you this. Is there any scenario that you can envision that would keep First Nations University open after March 31 and allow it to pursue its goals and objectives?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Chuck Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you, Mr. Russell.

Of course I think all of us feel badly about what's happened at First Nations University in a broad sense. It has been embroiled in turmoil, of course, over the last number of years, and some of that turmoil continues, although I grant you that some changes have been made.

I think it's important to note a couple of things. First of all, about 65% of the students who go to First Nations University receive funding directly from the federal government through our post-secondary programming, and that continues wherever those students are. It's not directed toward FNU; it's directed to the students themselves. It can be used--

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

To be clear, the funding we're talking about is seven point whatever million out of their ISSP.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Chuck Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

No, I'm talking about the funding to the students directly.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

Yes, but to the institution, it comes out of the ISSP, right?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Chuck Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

Right, but the funding that the students get directly continues. That continues whether they go to FNU or any other university.

When I met with the group the other day, the delegation that came from Saskatchewan, I pointed out a couple of things. First, even in Saskatchewan, probably 10% of the aboriginal students go to the FNU and 90% go elsewhere. And in the country, 95% of aboriginal students don't go to FNU; they go to all kinds of places across the country.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

But that's not the question, how many are going there. The point is, is there any way that you see that we can keep this institution going? Don't you see the value of the institution in and of itself, in terms of its goals and objectives?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Chuck Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

It's not a matter of whether I see a value in the institution. The problem right now is that there still isn't a plan on the table. I know there's a change in the governance. The last time we went through this, there were recommendations to completely overhaul the board. The FSIN got involved and said, “Okay, we'll completely overhaul the board”. The board was completely overhauled. That was four years ago.

I've been through this so many times. I've asked them, “What's the proposal?” When I met with them the other day, I said, “Have you got a proposal that you can apply?”, and Ms. Big Eagle, who was at the meeting, said that they are making preparations to work with the University of Regina. They hope to apply through the ISSP programming. I said, “That sounds good to me. If the university could apply, we would help in any way we could with the application forms or do some things through the ISSP programming.” But what we're not interested in doing is funding. This is the same story you're going to get from the province: they're not prepared to fund the model that's there.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

I understand the model is changing.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Chuck Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

Well, it's still not there. When they approached me the other day, they said they needed $3.8 million for the next 60 days. I said, “But $3.8 million is 50% of what we paid you all of last year, and that is for only 30 days into the new fiscal year.” They said, “Well, yes, and then we'll need $2 million a month for the rest of the year.”

I said, “It's three times as much as we paid last year.”

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

With all due respect, it doesn't seem like there's a sincere effort, Mr. Minister, to keep this institution going. That's what I hear in your comments. You haven't outlined a scenario in which we would keep it going.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Chuck Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

That's not true.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL

The Canadian Association of University Teachers, who were at one time very critical and censured, is onside, saying we must keep it open, and they're trying very diligently.

The University of Regina is there. Even the Province of Saskatchewan seems to be more open to allowing for this institution to survive for the benefit of students and communities.

I just wonder if there is something else we don't know about, that's not out there in the public purview, and that's keeping you from being supportive.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Chuck Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

Without getting specific, I think there probably is. If you read the report from the CFO.... As you said, they've changed CFOs, but not willingly. The last guy got ballooned when he blew the whistle on what was going on down there. He talked about abuses in the severance pay, abuses in the holiday pay, abuses in travel allowances, abuses in salary allocations, and he got fired for saying all this.

What I'm saying, Mr. Russell, is that there are ways it could be funded through the ISSP. There are 42 post-secondary institutions in Canada that deal with aboriginal people specifically, which apply through our regular programming. They can apply for that. I told them they can apply for that. I wished them success. We offered to help them with that.

That's how we help institutions. We're prepared to help, but we're not prepared to fund the FNU model, and neither is the province.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bruce Stanton

Thank you, Mr. Russell and Mr. Minister.

Mr. Lemay now has the floor for seven minutes.