Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 24th, 2011

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

In your discussions with GNWT politicians, did any of them raise any problems that the passing of this bill would cause for the Government of the Northwest Territories?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Quite clearly, this presentation that was made today explains very clearly what's going on. Perhaps, even to me, that wasn't as clear as it has been today, and the guidance I have received from the Minister of Finance has been to carry on “as you see fit”, so in that sense, I haven't had any instructions not to do what I'm doing.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Okay.

Mr. Forbes, given that this wouldn't give any additional financial debt or anything to the federal government, why would you care if this bill passes or not?

[Chris Forbes]

From our standpoint, as I went through it, we would look at this. We have a statutory requirement for a limit and we would look at, as I suggested, a few issues when determining whether the limit is adequate or not. We've come to a limit now, which is $575 million temporarily and going back to $500 million in a couple of years, which was itself an increase that was given a few years back.

I think the government has gone through a process of reviewing based on definitions and based on economic and fiscal circumstances on what it thinks is the right limit to put on it.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Is there a limit on the federal government?

[Chris Forbes]

The federal government can borrow as markets see fit to lend it.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

The federal government has no limit on the amount we can go into debt?

[Chris Forbes]

Not that I'm aware of.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

You're not recommending that, although you are recommending it for another level of government.

[Chris Forbes]

I'm just saying there's a statute in place, and we have a role to evaluate the limit under that statute.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

Let's go to Mr. Payne.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Bevington, for coming in today.

I notice that you read something from the finance minister--from November 2010, I believe you said.

I would like to make some comments here. Of course, you appeared before our committee on March 8, 2011. I would like to note some comments from the Honourable Floyd Roland in the territorial legislature.

It goes like this:

Yesterday our Member of Parliament, the MP for Western Arctic, testified before the federal Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. The committee is considering Bill C-530. ... I am concerned his comments did not reflect all of the information that I conveyed to him. ...I told the Member [for the GNWT] the GNWT would await the outcome of the federal review of territorial borrowing limits before determining what further actions might be necessary with respect to our borrowing limit.

Mr. Ramsay, who also got up to speak, said:

I'd like to speak today about Bill C-530. The bill and our MP, Mr. Bevington, where in front of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Development on Tuesday, March the 8th, in Ottawa. I found that most of what our MP had to say about consultation with people here in the Northwest Territories and our government to lack, quite frankly, any semblance in reality.

He goes on to say:

Does our MP actually believe that sending a letter then selecting parts of the response you like is consultation with our government? He states quite clearly that, in his opinion, consultation has taken place. ... The fact is, this consultation has not taken place in a meaningful way. ... What is most important to me is letting the review currently underway to look at the borrowing limits of the three territories to conclusion. ... ...this is just not the right approach by our MP. ...but on this effort he is completely off base and we should let the federal government know that he has not consulted us nor does he have the blessing of all Members of this Legislature.

Further to that, he goes on to say again, once he gets up to speak:

I’d like to ask the Premier if he’s sure that our Member of Parliament was awake when the Premier told him whether there was a process underway addressing the borrowing limit of the Government of the Northwest Territories. Was he actually awake?

Mr. Bevington, I do have some other questions. You also said you had some consultation with our finance minister. I find that quite interesting, because I believe our finance minister voted against your bill. I'm not sure what the result was of those consultations that you may have had with him.

When you were here before, you indicated that you had a letter from Premier Roland, and I'm wondering if you can provide us with a copy of that letter.

Of course, we did get some responses from the questions you did give us. We've had a chance to review them, and we appreciate your sending those answers. I think the committee really needs to ensure the answers are sufficient for those who would be involved in administering this bill should it pass, especially the Auditor General. As you know, she is the Auditor General for the Northwest Territories. As such, this proposal really needs to be transparent for her to do her job going forward.

I would therefore ask that before this committee ultimately votes on this bill, we either have the Auditor General appear before the committee to speak to it or we forward this letter and this bill for her observations.

Would you agree with that order of events, and would you be able to provide the copy of the letter from the premier? If not, why not?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I'd be very pleased to do that. The copy of the letter is there.

Do you want me to comment on your statement, or do you want to continue with your questioning?

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

I was asking if you would agree with the course of events in terms of asking for the Auditor General to appear before us.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

If I could speak to the course of events in regard to the premier's statement, when I quoted from his letter--

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

No, actually, Mr. Bevington, you may have quoted from his letter; I'm quoting from the information that was spoken in the NWT legislature by the premier and by Mr. Ramsay subsequent to your visit here. I can only take what they're telling me.

The other thing I wanted to ask you, Mr. Bevington, and I didn't have a chance to get the question in is, are you aware that in our economic action plan, Budget 2011, we are providing $150 million for a new road from Inuvik to Tuktoyaktuk? Are you aware of that?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

What I realize is that you have made a promise for $150 million for a road. Any money that would come on that particular promise would only come in 2012-13. I don't see that there's any money in the budget for that promise. I like the promise. I hope the promise is kept by the government, but if it's like many of the other promises you've made on capital infrastructure--

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Order. I'm not sure if that's entirely relevant. It's not relevant to the subject at hand.

Mr. Payne, I ask you to get back on the subject.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Bevington, would you agree that we should have the Auditor General come before the committee before we actually vote on this bill, to ensure we're getting all of the facts before us, and if not, why not?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Any effort to provide information on this subject I would welcome. I would absolutely welcome that information. If it is the Auditor General or people off the street, I would accept any witnesses you would have on this because I think this is a very important bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Mr. Payne.

We'll now go to monsieur Lévesque pour sept minutes.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You know, Ms. Melhorn, I feel a lot of sympathy for the GNWT. I think this is a government that has great difficulty making decisions because it has to operate with inadequate powers.

Mr. Forbes, I feel like asking you a question that is of particular interest to me. I could address it to Ms. Bluck but this would waste some of the time granted to the NWT representatives. I wanted to ask you how the negotiations relating to tax harmonization in Quebec are going, but I know you will not answer.

[An hon. member]

Dead right!

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I was part of a delegation that visited the Yukon, the Northwest Territories and Nunavut. Obviously, Quebec has long-standing claims but when I consider the powers granted to territorial governments, I find it incredible. It is as if a father gives a $20 bill to his son in the evening and tells him he can go out and spend his money, but if he finds any treasures, they would belong to the father. Why bother creating territories if you act as if they are incapable of managing their own affairs?

When I saw you here, I wondered whether you had made an evaluation of territorial resources and projected potential revenues of the territory you represent, using such things as the existing provincial equalization formula and combining all of this. I am certain you have the administrative capacity to manage your revenues and expenditures and to make the required decisions for a faster and more efficient development of territorial resources.

Do you have any data in that regard? If you do, can you share it with us?