Evidence of meeting #14 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reserves.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
Thank you.
Further to that, with regard to the municipalities with joint land and to land use planning and bylaw harmonization, obviously those can be tricky, because sometimes you're dealing with R1, R2, or R3 lots, or C1 or C2. How are first nations adapting to the role of trying to work with municipalities on zoning?
11:30 a.m.
Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Well, that depends on the first nation and, again, on the municipality. We have a number of instances, though, where first nations have adopted a really positive good-neighbour approach—and we ask for that.
Under the Indian Act, first nations have the ability to create zoning bylaws. We talked to you in the meeting last week,I think, about our work with first nations on land use planning projects. We have some good success stories around the country involving efforts for bylaw development and land use planning on reserve, to match what's going on in the municipality, but there's still a lot of work to be done.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC
We're glad to hear that municipalities and first nations work together on that because certainly the idea that both have to work together is an integral part.
If I have any more time, I will share it.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
You've pretty well run out.
But if I could just ask something quickly, on page 9 you talk about the cost of the additions to reserves, and obviously a good portion of that is for environmental assessments and the surveying of those properties. Who typically pays for that? Is it the first nation or is there some help from the department?
11:30 a.m.
Acting Director, Lands and Environment Operational Policy, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It largely depends on the situation for the particular addition to reserve. In certain specific claims settlements, they may receive a certain amount of compensation that would allow them to pay for the survey work or ESAs. For the most part, though, we do pay for the survey work and the ESAs out of departmental funds.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
So there's not necessarily a standard, but it is oftentimes out of the department's funds?
11:30 a.m.
Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The largest cost, of course, would be the purchase of the land.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
November 22nd, 2011 / 11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
Thanks very much.
I understood that one of the three categories for addition to reserve was community relocations. I'd been told that you could add land because of natural occurrences like flooding and there would be “site-specific considerations” related, it says, “to comparing the cost-benefit of the relocation against a variety of other options”. I understand the policy, which still says that:
INAC will continue to provide the necessary assistance (including the provision of reserve land by adding to or creating a new reserve or by relocating a reserve community within an existing reserve) where a natural disaster (e.g., flooding) threatens the immediate safety of a community's residents, or where such a disaster has already occurred. When relocation is the most viable long-term option according to the criteria set out below, INAC will assist the First Nation in relocating the community on an urgent basis.
I guess I want to know, if that's the case--and sometimes examples are the most educative things for us as members of Parliament--why are the thousands of people from Lake St. Martin and Little Saskatchewan First Nations still in hotels in Manitoba six months later, and why has there been no negotiation on setting up a new reserve on an urgent basis when even more severe flooding is expected this fall?
It's quite clear that this land is too low and that it will always be flooded. I understand there's crown land, higher land, adjacent to that reserve. Why aren't we getting on and doing it if it says in the policy that this is normally done “on an urgent basis” and when it's quite clear that the land they have right now is completely unsuitable for an ongoing community?
11:30 a.m.
Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
You're quite right: that is an example of a very urgent situation. It has been a top priority for the department throughout the spring and summer, and for the province as well.
I know that our regional colleagues in Manitoba have been working very closely with the first nations and with the provincial government to look at all the available options, one of them being permanent relocation. A number of options are being explored. Relocation is a desire of some of the affected communities, but not all of them. They don't all necessarily want to permanently move, so there's a balancing of the interests going on there--
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
I guess from some of the communities they're saying there has been no negotiation. The minister appointed somebody from Alberta to come and negotiate this, somebody who apparently didn't even come and talk to them for months after his appointment.
But if this is the policy of the department, why can't the department just get on and do it?
11:35 a.m.
Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I can't talk to the specifics of the negotiation. It's something going on in our regional--
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
Could you get back to this committee with what has happened from the time that there was clearly an untenable situation, long term? What is the situation with crown land sitting right next to the reserve? The government doesn't even have to buy it; it already owns it.
11:35 a.m.
Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I can certainly get back to you with what I'm able to say about the ongoing negotiations that are taking place with the province and the first nations. I've been involved in some of the calls that have been going on with that, through headquarters, but as I said, it's mostly going on in the region.
As you mentioned in the beginning, though, that is the third category under the policy, which is to find lands to relocate bands. There are definitely situations...situations in Labrador where that was required, and situations of the flooding in Lake St. Martin, as you've indicated. Those would come under the third policy.
But when it's an emergency situation, obviously that moves up in the priorities. It's not a long-term solution then; it's a much shorter-term solution. That is most definitely one of the considerations that's going on in negotiations right now: to find the appropriate solutions for the first nations, including relocation.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
Could that include just moving almost temporary...? Obviously you negotiate the land, but then you also have to help them rebuild the infrastructure. That, I understood, could even be trailer kinds of temporary facilities to be able to get these people back on the land and out of the hotels.
11:35 a.m.
Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That's absolutely one of the options.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
What does “urgent” mean when we're spending millions of dollars on hotel bills? I mean, we've almost spent what it would cost to relocate it in these six months.
11:35 a.m.
Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
As I said, I'm not intimately involved in the negotiations, but I will be able to bring back to you what I can in terms of what's happening. These are behind-closed-doors negotiations with the first nations and the province for the most part, but I certainly can provide you with the information.
Yes, the department has recognized it as an urgent matter from day one when the flooding occurred.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
Some of the crown lands have been leased to ranchers, and that is deemed to be the reason that this solution isn't as obvious to others as it would seem to be to the first nation. How does the Government of Canada get out of those leases so you can actually end up helping these people relocate urgently?
11:35 a.m.
Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Again, I can't answer you on the specifics on that, but I will bring back to you what I'm able to from the negotiations.
11:35 a.m.
Director General, Community Opportunities Branch, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
If I may though, I think one point should be added. With all these examples of where you have flooding, or fires, or emergencies that would trigger a need to deal with new reserve lands, I think it's inevitable that in order to respond to the short-term emergency you're going to have to use hotels and some temporary accommodation.
No matter how fast you try to move on the addition to reserve, you do have to deal with purchasing the lands and dealing with existing interests, not only of third parties like ranchers, but also of public utilities, provincial interests, and any municipal tax loss compensation.
Even if you do put it into an urgent category, because you must have a stable solution that's less expensive than hotels, in the best of circumstances you're likely to see situations where the department is incurring immediate costs for first nation residents.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
In the definition of whether this is sustainable, a flood plain is a flood plain, and we can't go on in the same location. Don't you then immediately trigger that it's urgent?
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Ms. Bennett, your time has expired. I did give time for an answer.
I think it might be helpful, though, if committee members.... My understanding is that crown lands are held in trust by the provinces and they are the ones who undertake agreements with ranchers or different utility companies. It wouldn't be the federal government. Is that a correct understanding of it? That crown lands in most, areas, at least in the areas that I'm familiar with, are held by the provinces...?
11:40 a.m.
Director General, Lands and Environmental Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Absolutely: the majority of lands in provinces are provincial crown lands. There are some pockets that are federal crown lands, without a doubt, but the majority are provincial crown lands. That's correct. That's why in a situation like Lake St. Martin they have to be at the table.
11:40 a.m.
Conservative