Evidence of meeting #21 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was management.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
So you're saying there, Jennifer--excuse me for a second--that we're talking then about insufficient regulatory authority, which goes to governance.
In my second question here, on capacity-building programs, I was going to try to flesh out this whole governance issue. We've had meetings not just here but in the crown and first nations gathering around governance. Certainly part of this was brought up in it.
So insufficient regulatory authority is what I'm hearing you say as well.
Chair, Ontario Aboriginal Lands Association; Director, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association
Yes.
Another characteristic would be efficiency. To move us into the speed of business, there must be adequate land management resources, technology, tools, and systems in place.
Another characteristic is transparency: proper laws, policies, best practices, and guidelines to govern a lands and economic development program.
Next is accountability. Local and external governing authorities must be accountable to stakeholders with a high degree of professional standards and personal integrity.
Professional capacity is very important. You need a highly qualified individual with clearly defined and well-developed competencies who can lead their community to proceed into greater responsibility and autonomy over their lands management.
It's—
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
Just one second there, Jennifer. I'm making a list here, hard and fast, but I just want to go back to “speed of business”. That theme has come up consistently, not just here but in other discussions. I was looking for a concrete example of that, as the Indian Act might impose.
For example, would that be a restriction on mortgages on reserve that would be delaying the cost of processing land transactions, by way of example in terms of the business principle?
Chair, Ontario Aboriginal Lands Association; Director, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association
In terms of moving us into the speed of business, a perfect example is when our community wanted to move into a solar wind project. One of the big barriers was trying to get that land designated for that project. Unfortunately, not everybody in the business world realizes that in order for us to have a business on first nations territory, we have to go through a designation process.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
Jennifer or Leona, in terms of capacity-building, the joint action plan as established by National Chief Atleo and Minister Duncan had identified governance as one of the key pillars of this as a prerequisite to moving to sectoral self-government initiatives in areas like land management.
But with respect to the training, is part of it understanding about the Indian Act and the challenges that it faces? It makes sense that it would.
Chair, Ontario Aboriginal Lands Association; Director, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association
Definitely; when we're dealing with outside entities, third-party interests, they don't understand how slow it is to try to manage lands under the Indian Act.
In mainstream society, you strike up a deal with somebody and then you can move forward. When you're on reserve, it's totally different. You have to go through these stages that take a long time. You follow the chain of command. Finally, after one or two years, we're allowed to do what we want on our land. In the meantime, our investors have lost interest. They're gone.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
Okay. So designation...and I would go back to the mortgages on reserve. Those are some classic examples of the process stuff under the Indian Act that is really stifling the managers and their communities from moving forward, then.
Chair, Ontario Aboriginal Lands Association; Director, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association
When it comes to mortgages, we cannot just go to the bank and get a mortgage. We have to get a ministerial guarantee from the Department of Aboriginal Affairs.
Conservative
Chair, Ontario Aboriginal Lands Association; Director, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association
Exactly. And then the individual, in order to get that ministerial guarantee approved, has to sign their land back over to the first nation.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
Leona, you look as though you just wanted to add to that, and I know I'm almost done here for time.
Executive Director, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association
Well, one area to which more attention has to be paid is land-use planning. That's critical.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you very much.
Ms. Bennett, go ahead for seven minutes.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
Thanks very much.
I think your “Well-trained people are priceless” is a fantastic idea for everybody. I think it's certainly what we've been hearing.
I did want to raise something, however, seeing as the parliamentary secretary mentioned that there had been conversations about this at the crown and first nations gathering. We offer our apologies, because we--members of the opposition, I mean--were not allowed at that gathering or allowed to hear those meetings and those conversations.
I would hope that maybe the chair would find any notes from those meetings to circulate to us, because I think it's very difficult for us to do our work as a committee when our exposure to these sorts of important conversations between the crown and first nations is uneven.
Conservative
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
In the future, if there are events like this, it would be normal that members of the aboriginal affairs committee—all of them—would be invited to participate in those meetings.
Conservative
Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON
It's just that we're here to discuss the issues relevant and pertinent to what the witnesses spoke about. Although I do respect the right and the need to talk about participation and about things like the Kelowna Accord and so on, it doesn't make any sense, because witnesses are here--
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Mr. Rickford.
Committee members are given some latitude in their time. Of course, we want to maintain the time that's given.
Carolyn, please feel free to be getting--
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
I was merely reacting to the testimony from the parliamentary secretary, who presumed that we all knew about those conversations.
I guess the word “capacity” is the word we hear the most. I guess I would love you to sort of dream in technicolor as to how it would look if you were able to do what you know needs to be done in terms of building capacity in all parts of Canada on your lands. We did hear from the Auditor General that there is some concern that if people have to move a long way from their communities, it's way more difficult, or that some people are unable to complete the program.
Obviously we're worried that some people are not at...whether it's high school completion or the kinds of things that it takes to be able to really get in there and learn and be successful. I would love to know what you think we could do.
If you were writing the recommendations for this committee report, how would that fit in terms of your vision and your long-term strategy to make sure that first nations people are trained up to be able to manage their lands themselves?
Executive Director, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association
First of all, Carolyn, you are welcome to come to our national gatherings, and I invite everyone. They are very informative and speak to a lot of issues and capacity.
We'd like to envision more capacity, to broaden our certification program. Again, fiscal restraints prevent us from doing that. But we are looking--
Liberal
Executive Director, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association
What would be our waiting list? Well, we canvassed them first. I mean, it's not “we”; I'm sorry. I meant the Department of Aboriginal Affairs canvassed. For the training program, we work in partnership with Aboriginal Affairs. They're the ones who seek the participants or the students who come in. There is not a waiting list for the programs we're offering. There is a list for others who want to take the training that is not specifically geared to the RLEMP program or the FNLM program.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON
Would your students or participants be people who have been working in this area who now want to get certified, or are some of them now understanding that when they come straight out of high school this is a good thing to learn how to do in terms of a career path?
Chair, Ontario Aboriginal Lands Association; Director, National Aboriginal Lands Managers Association
Well, we have I guess two differences. One is the person who has been in the business for so many years. I myself have been in the business for 25 years now; I haven't taken the training that's available through NALMA. I chose to send somebody who is younger to take that. She was fresh out of university and became part of the lands department in our community. She was ready to go back to school. She took the course and made the dean's list, which I'm very proud of.
I felt like I wasn't ready to go back to school. I don't plan on being in the lands business forever. I want to prepare my first nation, so that when it's time for me to vacate as lands manager, somebody's right there to take over and there's no halt in any of the services we provide to our community members.
Some of our participants have just been hired to manage lands. They have no basic knowledge of lands management, so this is a perfect opportunity for them to get their competencies, their capacity-building, and their networking, because the students are from right across Canada.