Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2012

[Jennifer Copegog]

Definitely. We do referrals. For example, first nations call the NALMA headquarters for assistance on lands issues, and what the staff at the headquarters office does is refer that person to a first nation whose specific function may be, for example, band leasing. I get frequent calls from first nations asking me how we do our band leasing, how we generate the revenue, or how we were able to collect our own rents rather than having the Department of Indian Affairs collect our revenue for us.

Basically I just tell them, here's how we got started. We were an RLAP band. We moved into 53/60, and now, with the announcement, we've been selected for FNLM. That's always been a goal for our first nation.

With us doing a lot of leasing, I offer technical expertise and mentoring. Sometimes I would even go into a first nation office and show somebody how to set up their office to make sure that they have the right equipment and tools. I just provide as much service as I possibly can.

If there's a specific matter regarding, for example, surveys, then I would refer them to Natural Resources Canada and introduce them to somebody—like a colleague I work closely with at NRCan. There's a lot of networking that goes on between first nations, whether they're a part of NALMA or not.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

I have one more question.

If a specific nation had questions about the agreements on the impacts and benefits of resource development on its traditional lands, would you be able to answer those questions?

[Jennifer Copegog]

Yes, we are. As I said at the beginning, a lot of the requests for referrals go to the head office. The head office, the staff at the NALMA office, knows the first nations that are specific.... For example, in Aaron's community they deal with oil and gas and a lot of permitting. So if a question about permits comes in, they would refer that person to Aaron's office. We have bios of all of our first nations at headquarters. Our resource person at NALMA knows where they can send a person to get more information and hands-on assistance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you so much.

Your time has expired.

Mr. Wilks, for five minutes.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for coming today.

I've watched with interest the use of first nations land management by first nations, particularly in British Columbia with Westbank. In my riding of Kootenay—Columbia, the Shuswap and the Ktunaxa have just signed on to first nations land management. I'm eagerly going to watch that, because it should be very interesting.

In that light, have the capacity building programs undertaken by your association and aboriginal development created an atmosphere that supports movement from Indian Act land management to first nations land management? Could you give me some examples of how that has worked for you?

[Leona Irons]

Within our training program?

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Within your training program.

[Leona Irons]

Okay.

Yes, in our modules, we do have transition views. We talk about the roles and responsibilities under the Indian Act as well as under the First Nations Land Management Act. Although our training is not specific to FNLM, we do try to do the comparisons for them and show the level of responsibility they would have.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

So with that you've just indicated that there was some overlap between the Indian Act's land management and FNLM. Can you expand upon that a bit in trying to relate one to the other?

[Leona Irons]

Okay. We do talk about contract law. Contract law is contract law, and I don't believe that in any regime there is a difference. So we do teach contract law and there are similarities. We are trying to raise that point with our students in regard to knowing the difference between both.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Further to that, with regard to land planning, my background is in municipal government, so I understand the importance of land planning. This may be somewhat of silly question to ask, but I'll ask it anyway. I recognize that land-use planning is important to land managers, but I'd like to know from the panel here why it's so important to have that understanding. Secondly, are communities engaged in land-use planning? If not, what could we do to make them aware of this and why it is so important?

[Jennifer Copegog]

As far as land-use planning is concerned, I think that's really at the forefront for all first nations right now. If you look at neighbouring municipalities, they govern and manage their lands based on a land-use plan; first nations don't have that right now. There may be some first nations out there who have land-use plans, but these plans are probably not as complex as what a municipality would have.

I've been working toward a land-use plan for our community for about three years now. Chief and council thought it was a very simple process and said we'd use zoning: here's residential and here's that type of thing. But I said I don't envision our land-use plan to be just for zoning; there have to be policies and procedures put into that land-use plan, especially with the environment. Species at risk have a big impact on first nations these days. You'll find a lot of the species that are named on the at-risk list on first nations' territory. That limits us right there. We have to make sure that as good stewards of the land, endangered species continue to live on our territory, whether those be plants, animals, or those types of things.

There are a lot of things that come into land use. I envision that my land-use plan is going to have all of those components. First we need to know what's on our land in order to have a really good land-use plan, because if it shows that there are endangered species in this area, then for sure we're not going to do residential or commercial projects in that area; we're going to make sure that's protected. There is a lot of work involved to make an inventory of what's on your first nation. We've talked to many first nations land managers right across Canada, and it seems that if there's a species named on the endangered list, you're going to find it on a first nation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you so much.

Unfortunately, Mr. Wilks, your time has expired.

We'll go to Mr. Bevington for five minutes.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thank you.

I'm interested in capacity. I think it's quite clear that your job is complex: not only do you have to have a land-use plan and know your land, but then you also have to advance whatever you're doing through the federal bureaucracy.

I'm curious. How do you feel about the capacity of the federal bureaucracy to handle the issues that come in front of you? What's the timeline when you advance a project through that process? Could you describe that to us?

[Leona Irons]

I'm so glad you brought that question up, because our colleagues in the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and the federal government also need capacity. As we ourselves raise the professional standards, our colleagues at the regional headquarters also have to be on equal ground. It seems as though they are limited as well in their funds to build capacity. So I appreciate that question, because we do feel for our colleagues in the Department of Aboriginal Affairs. They also need capacity.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Does anybody else want to comment on that, in terms of the timeframe and the relationship once you have a project that you've moved forward, and what happens to it after that?

[Jennifer Copegog]

As far as working with our colleagues at the Department of Aboriginal Affairs is concerned, some first nations are fortunate to have a really good working relationship with the people in the Department of Aboriginal Affairs land sector. Others are not that fortunate, where the process is slow.

I think networking with our colleagues at the Department of Aboriginal Affairs really helps the project move along faster, not only for first nations land managers to keep on top of Aboriginal Affairs but also vice versa, so that everyone is working toward a common goal. We have to really commit to that goal to make sure that the project is completed.

[Leona Irons]

Streamlining the processes is something they should look at in terms of some of the transactions we do. They too should look at the processes.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Well, we're trying to get a handle on the capacity within the land division here so that we can understand, and we've yet to receive that information from them. There are many first nations across the country that would be putting input into them all the time—apart from the work you're doing, correct?

In terms of the work that's coming from the managers you've trained and the people engaged in your organization, what percentage of all first nations across the country does that represent?

[Leona Irons]

We'll have to get back to you on that number.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I don't need a precise number. An approximation would be good enough.

[Leona Irons]

Well, for the most part....

So out of the 68 certified land managers, how many are associated with our organization?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Or how many first nations across the country are associated with your organization and are part of that network of working together?

[Leona Irons]

We have about 88.

[Jennifer Copegog]

Yes, about 88 first nations across Canada are involved with the national organization. That number grows on an annual basis.

At the Ontario Aboriginal Lands Association, our membership is 27. If you look at the number of first nations in Ontario, we have 133 first nations in Ontario. We have 27 under our association. Our goal is to strive to have 133 under our association.

Again, we're a technical group. We want to make sure that we build capacity for our lands managers. There are a lot northern communities in Ontario that do a lands function, but they don't have the funding. They probably don't even realize that they could probably get funding, because they're just...it's always been that way. They do a lands function, but they don't get compensated for the work they're doing.

Whether it's because their transactions are not high enough... Because I think the Department of Aboriginal Affairs looks at how many transactions a first nation does in order to qualify for more funding. If you're managing maybe one or two leases, maybe a hundred CPs, your funding is not going to be very high, but you're still managing those lands.