Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 14th, 2012

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

The First Nations Land Management Act called for a first nations land manager. In addition to this manager, do you think it would be beneficial for communities to have an expert on sustainable development and environmental effects? Do you believe, on the contrary, that this role could ultimately be fulfilled by the same person?

[Grant Trump]

Certainly. There are a variety of other areas within the whole sustainable development area, whether they are with respect to solid waste, waste water, potable water, the natural environment, or wildlife preservation. There are a tremendous number of environmental activities. How is this going to tie in, as well, with new alternative and renewable energy sources and with new ways of doing business? And what aspects can we involve the aboriginal people in?

I'll give you an example. We had open discussions with the National Energy Board. In looking at the north, there is discussion of potential drilling in the Beaufort Sea and all across northern Canada. We know, indeed, that there's a potential for spills. Why not create expertise within the indigenous community to deal with oil spills. They could become the experts in that particular area. They live there. They would be there to respond. They could create that niche market, as the Mohawk have done in high steel or as a variety of other organizations have done in Canada. Safety Boss, in Alberta, has done it with oil-well firefighting.

There is the ability to create that expertise, I believe, within relatively rural remote communities. They may have to go to other places to do that work, but their homes will still be in their homeland. And they'll go home to that, as they do in these other communities.

I believe there is going to be tremendous opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you so much.

We'll go to Mr. Wilks, for five minutes.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you both for coming today.

My questions are directed towards Chief Toulouse.

With regard to the ATR process and this government's attempts to rectify the issue, we heard testimony from Gilbert Whiteduck last week. You have raised the issue of the capacity to process a proposal in a timely and effect way. How do you propose that some of these things be addressed? Could you expound upon that, please?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

I'll use the example of Chief JimBob Marsden of Alderville. In 1996 he purchased some property right beside his first nations community for economic development purposes. What he was wanting to do initially was open up a golf course, figuring that it was the kind of economic activity they needed in the area. They developed it. They did the necessary feasibility work. They came back to the Department of Indian Affairs, but the way the policy and the manual is--it's an 800-page manual--it allows the bureaucrat at the regional office to not recognize the proposal. The problem is that if it's not a category 1 proposal, there is no legal obligation on the part of government to deal with the issue. So what they do is find a way to set it aside and keep the community spinning.

They continued to spin. They continued to work on it.

For this past one, they have a 25-year FIT contract with the Province of Ontario to sell energy back. What they have is solar power. They have the bank ready with the resources in hand to make the transaction and essentially ensure that the project will proceed. The way the manual is set up, again, allows the bureaucrat to essentially sidestep it and allow them to continue to wait to see what's going to happen. There is no real reason the first nation is being denied. They've been told that they need a bank and that they need the money. They have it.

What they've had are situations where the way the policy is set up, it does not allow Ontario.... It is just Ontario I'm talking about, because Ontario first nations are for some reason unique. They do not have a category 1 kind of proposal in Ontario.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Just to add to that, would working on a provincial level affect the process for additions to reserves? You would be working with the province instead. How do you see that?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

That's been the problem. As far as we can tell right now, it is the federal government, the Department of Indian Affairs or Aboriginal Affairs—I'm not sure what AANDC stands for, but Indian Affairs is how I will refer to it. They are the ones that continue to prevent the economic development from the first nation communities to take place. Again, these are just a couple of examples that I've used.

In the London area, Chief Miskokomon, on the same thing, had a number of proposals. He's made a number of attempts, wanting to create an economic, industrial park outside of London, recognizing there's a major highway that travels in his neck of the woods that he would like to take advantage of. Again, there is no ability for the policy to acknowledge and accommodate their desire to create this kind of economic opportunity.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

If I may, because you spoke about category 1, could we speak to category 2 then, with regard to the proposals on additions to reserves on category 2? Could you provide some detail on how these proposals come about and some of the plans for additional lands once they are added to reserve with regard to category 2?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I hate to do this, but it will have to be 20 seconds or less.

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

There is no category 1 in Ontario. All we have is category 2.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Perfect. Thank you.

Mr. Jacob, go ahead.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you. I am going to start with a question for Mr. Trump since he has to leave soon.

I would like to know, Mr. Trump, whether your program delivery method takes into account the inability of some land managers to travel for training purposes.

[Grant Trump]

Yes, we do.

A lot of our training is actually done within the community. We actually offer the training within the community for those particular activities. The problem is getting a critical mass of students. How many students do we have? If we only have three or four it becomes quite expensive to do that. When we're talking about some of this training, which for this particular purpose is relatively short, four weeks to 10 or 15 weeks depending upon the program that goes on, I agree, it's very difficult in some cases to move.

We are looking at how we could, if possible and where appropriate, offer this training through electronic means. ECO Canada has a tremendous amount of experience with offering electronic training. We are partners with 33 universities and 26 colleges across this country in an organization called the Canadian Centre for Environmental Education. We offer a full-blown college diploma laddering to a full-blown baccalaureate degree and a full-blown master's degree, 100% online, no residency requirements. We presently have 851 students taking 3,500 courses.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much.

I would like to know whether first nations land managers have ever told you they have difficulty obtaining funding for land management training.

[Grant Trump]

To acquire those training dollars is always difficult. We always run into particular problems. In some cases what we look at is a partnership with industry. If there are some particular activities that are going to happen in relative close proximity, then often industry will help to offset costs for those particular activities. Finding those training dollars is not a simple thing to do within the community, I agree with you.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

The next question is for Angus Toulouse, the Ontario Regional Chief.

Do you feel the laws and regulations are adequate to protect the health of your community? Can you give us any real-life examples of problems that have come up in your community as a result of existing regulations, as well as ways they could be improved?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

The regulations and legislation to protect the health of our first nations...we haven't seen it. We have the Indian Act, which has been around since 1876. This is a piece of legislation that was supposed to protect first nations and to ensure the health and well-being and education of our people. Twenty-eight years behind, with a huge gap, I don't think it's there.

What I think we want to keep saying is that we need to support the capacity of first nations to develop and use their lands effectively. The only way we can do that is by doing joint development of policies and legislation. We need to not have unilaterally developed policies and legislation. Trying to impose them on our first nations communities doesn't work.

That's what I've been saying since...well, not I have been saying, but what the first nations leaders have been saying since 1876. My ancestors are coming through me, reminding me that this has been the problem.

Some of the big educators—the global institutions, such as the Schulich School of Business—recognize that we have to change the way curriculum and resource development takes place. They're saying that there is a new way of doing business, and that's recognizing the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. That's foundational in terms of the curriculum, in terms of the way first nations need to be dealt with. And first nations rights have to be acknowledged and recognized. As people are recognizing how development will take place in Canada, they recognize that things have changed, that we have a—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you. I'm going to have to jump in here, Chief, and I apologize.

We want to have one last questioner before we let you go, Mr. Trump. We're thankful for your time and appreciate it.

Mr. Seeback.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Chief, I have a couple of questions for you.

I want to pick up on one of the things you mentioned earlier. You talked about six of 33 first nations entering into the FNLM in Ontario. Is that people who have completed the process, or just the people who have actually applied to enter into the FNLM regime?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

I just want to correct you. It's six out of 133. There's a big difference between 33 and 133.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

I thought I said 133, but....

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

It's six out of 133. To be fair, there are five additional communities that are in some process or part of this first nations land management.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Five are in the process or have applied; six have completed the process. Is that accurate to what you're saying?

[Chief Angus Toulouse]

Yes. Those six that have completed are saying that they have found, since these five have been brought on, that their capacity has diminished, because the pot of resources has not changed. All that happens is that once more are added, those six are going to lose more capacity, and the next five are going to lose more capacity as more first nations....

They have a finite amount of resources specifically for first nations land management—whatever that policy is.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Just to be clear, we're talking about 11, if we combine them, out of 133.