Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 16th, 2012

[John Paul]

You know what I mean; somebody comes up with some of these ideas that are pretty over-the-top to do, which don't make any sense to the community, and which you'd never be able to sell in the community. You'd never be able to convince people to do something that puts the land at risk, because that's against who we are. Putting the land at risk is not something communities feel comfortable doing, in a lot of cases.

Unless you're able to go to the community and clearly explain exactly what you're doing, engage them in a discussion, and do it through a process, everybody will have their own version of what it might be. The only way to get around the mystery of it, whether it be with a non-native private sector person or in the community, is a factual, evidence-based process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you. Unfortunately, your time has expired and gone even further.

Mr. Clarke, for five minutes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for coming here today. It's nice to see the chief again; I think this question could be directed to him.

Chief, what we see with Westbank First Nation is how they've moved out of the First Nations Land Management Act regime and moved more into self-government. Seeing their progress in how they've moved into self-government, I'm hoping you could further clarify the types of steps that other first nations, currently operating under the First Nations Land Management Act, are going to need in order to move out of this act toward self-government.

[Chief R. Donald Maracle]

I think there has to be a capacity. That's the first issue, and there has to be a law-making authority with the ability to enforce the laws in the jurisdiction. Without that being in place, it's going to be pretty difficult to meet challenges.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Do you feel that some of the first nations will just maintain the status quo and stay under the First Nations Lands Management Act?

[Chief R. Donald Maracle]

The First Nations Land Management Act may work very well for some communities, but there's no cookie-cutter approach that what's good in British Columbia is going to be good and appropriate in Ontario or in Atlantic Canada or in Quebec, for example. So it has to be appropriate to the culture and circumstances of the people.

If a community is focused on the harvesting and development of natural resources, then there's going to be a model for that. If it's agricultural, there may be a different model. If it's manufacturing, something that goes into the marketplace, the model may be different. So it will all be driven by the circumstances of the local jurisdiction, the policies and laws that are appropriate.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

When you see a first nation community under the First Nations Land Management Act, where do you see some of the communities 10, 15, 20 years down the road under this regime?

[Chief R. Donald Maracle]

I don't know enough about the communities under the First Nations Land Management Act to have an informed opinion, especially for this committee. I can tell you in terms of rights, Mohawk people believe that first nations people have certain rights, and I think the right to be tax-exempt was certainly contemplated by the treaty commissioners when they came out to get land. So this whole question of taxation is a stumbling block. There are people who are very much opposed to the notion of taxation of their members on reserve lands. A lot of people believe they have a right to be tax-exempt.

So when we saw, for example, the GST-PST-HST harmonization project in Ontario a few years ago, first nations rose to the forefront to oppose it because of the belief in the treaty right to be tax-exempt.

So under the First Nations Land Management Act a taxation system would probably come into play.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

So you're looking more not at taxation, but maybe a user fee?

[Chief R. Donald Maracle]

People do pay user fees in our community. If they're receiving a direct service, like hydro or water and sewer, they will pay those fees because they're deriving a benefit; but if it's something that's just taxation, there would be opposition to it. In our case, Treaty 3 1/2 says that no rents, fines, or services will be paid. So there are treaty provisions in some of the specific treaties.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

What do you see as the potential under the First Nations Land Management Act--say now down to 15 years?

[Chief R. Donald Maracle]

Again, I don't know enough about where it has been implemented. I haven't read too many reports on how it's working. When communities came under that regime, it was heralded as a major step forward, but the follow-up report to make sure people are satisfied that it's working well, how it has affected jobs, or how it has bettered the conditions of the people.... To a large extent, you still see stories about poor housing and lack of water. So it hasn't generated the wealth to better the circumstances of the people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Clarke. Your time has expired.

Ms. Hughes, for five minutes.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned education. That's something that I think is extremely important. It's something I raised during my speech today as well, the education piece, the training piece, to be able to fill the skills shortage we are facing now and in the future.

You've indicated here that you've made incremental improvements in education, especially in Nova Scotia, under this self-government agreement. I'd be interested in hearing a little about that.

A little further on you indicate that our youth need positive programming to ensure they grow into healthy, well-adjusted adults, and do not face the serious challenges of addiction and suicide. Then you go on to say there are serious gaps in youth programming at the community level and these gaps need to be fixed. Could you elaborate on that a bit? What is your vision? What has worked and what hasn't worked?

[John Paul]

Probably the most important part of the sectoral self-government act that was signed a number of years ago is that it really gave jurisdiction to the communities in terms of what to do in education. It fundamentally allowed communities themselves to figure out what to do. The other important part is that they worked extensively with the communities to actually figure out what was going to be involved in this so-called jurisdiction.

The other big component of the agreement is a multi-year funding agreement, or a grant agreement. I'm not sure what type of agreement it is, but there is an agreement that has built-in escalators that tie directly to the number of students and inflation on an ongoing basis since the agreement was created. This is fundamentally important in order to keep track of your populations over ten, twenty years. It does match relative to the volume of people in the system and your actual cost in terms of delivering those things.

The other part is that it has also allowed the communities to work among themselves to focus on strategies that improve linguistic immersion programs in the communities, as one aspect. But also it has put in a number of support mechanisms throughout a whole system that have allowed us over ten years--it's been quite a few years--to really focus on making sure people stay in the system.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Are there still some challenges with respect to education?

[John Paul]

Yes.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

What are these?

[John Paul]

In terms of education, in the communities I'm aware of, like my own community, they found that integrating the linguistic and cultural component into schools from kindergarten through grade 5 and beyond to grade 12 has had a significant influence in terms of student success rates. Your ability to perform in math and science, or whatever the course, is better because you're a proud Mi'kmaq or Maliseet person and you have a better view of who you are. That's really shown over the years in terms of how it's actually played out, where the retention rates were the same as those of everybody else before this.

As I said, over 10 or 15 years it has actually incrementally changed and improved in our communities over that amount of time. It's taken people in the system, working with parents, working with the leadership, to actually change the system.

The province has an act, the “we'll leave you alone” act, I'd call it, basically. That's what it says: “We'll leave you alone. We'll work with you and collaborate with you.” I call it the “we'll leave you alone” act, basically, even though the province has all the jurisdiction.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Paul.

Mr. Seeback, for five minutes.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Chief Maracle, I was reading a little bit of your statement. I find it fascinating that 90% of your reserve land is in private possession. Is that what you were saying?

[Chief R. Donald Maracle]

It's been in private possession since way before there was an Indian Act. We had a private land tenure system. There were family farms and things like that. Before there was an Indian Act our people had adopted that system.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

That's very different from what we hear from most people who come and talk at committee.

Are you saying that those lands have mostly historically been in the possession of individuals? Or have you, over time, given certificates of possession to--

[Chief R. Donald Maracle]

They had reserve deeds to their property, and when the Indian Act came into being in 1876 there was a land tenure system under that. I think at one time they called it a location certificate. Eventually it evolved into a certificate of possession system.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

So that's how land is now used, under a certificate of possession. When somebody has a certificate of possession, are they then able to build a home, and then they go and get a mortgage--