Evidence of meeting #36 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tenure.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Mr. Wilks.
We'll turn to Monsieur Genest-Jourdain for five minutes.
4:40 p.m.
NDP
4:40 p.m.
NDP
Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC
That's okay, we have interpreters.
Mr. Shanks, I was especially impressed by the fact that you mentioned such a diverse range of considerations in your presentation, from community governance and self-esteem to unique features such as non-tax status.
Given how much experience you have and how long you have worked in this field, I would say you will be able to give me insight into certain things. My background is as a criminal lawyer. And my next question will reflect that.
I'd like you to bear in mind the considerations I just mentioned and give me your take on how white collar crime affects community decisions. What impact do influence peddling and insider trading have, since they inevitably go hand in hand with major economic development and the noticeable wealth of certain aboriginal communities.
4:40 p.m.
As an Individual
That's an interesting question. I don't think I've ever had that question before.
Anecdotally, and I'm sure the committee has talked to lots of people, there are payments that go to communities and sometimes they don't always appear where they should. That's why I think the notion of good governance is really quite critical to economic development, so that any white collar crime or any impetus or incentive to it could be absolutely minimized by having a transparent accountable government.
When first nations are negotiating with large resource development companies, those companies are inclined to make all kinds of arrangements. It's really important that those be as transparent and open and defined as possible. Whether that's the case now or not could be an empirical question. I have no evidence or experience to say otherwise, but it's important to make sure that it's not something that could happen.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC
I want to come back to self-esteem, which you mentioned. What is your take on it?
Some communities derive a sense of pride from going back to their traditional practices. That's an integral part of self-esteem. Does a return to traditional values factor into your understanding of that pride and self-esteem within a community? It's the very glue that holds some communities together.
4:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I think the whole question of self-esteem comes up at various levels, but it is fundamental. It is very important, I think.
I was talking to a chief from northern Alberta a couple of weeks ago, and they've been quite successful as the result of some opportunities in oil development and such. The reason they were successful was that he was able to take young people who didn't see they had a future and got them employed, got them into work that was actually productive and gave them a future. This built upon itself so they were actually encouraging one another to get into the labour force and get working. The values they talked about were very traditional values. They said their grandparents had told them there was no welfare, that they worked and were self-sufficient, so that's the value they're trying to re-establish.
The other thing he talked about, oddly enough, was that they were nomads. They went and followed their food, they followed the climate, whatever, and they realize now that maybe they have to do a bit of that too: if there isn't work right here we will move to where it is, but we take who we are with us and we come back. But that is a tradition, and they were saying that's who they are too.
That pride in being able to do that as a nation was a key element to their success.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Mr. Shanks. Thank you, Mr. Genest-Jourdain.
We'll turn to Mr. Boughen now for five minutes.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Shanks, let me offer my word of welcome to match those of my colleagues' welcome. We're appreciative of you taking the time to meet with us.
In some of your documentation you mentioned “invasive legislation“ as a contributing factor for significant economic and social gaps between first nations and others. Could you expand on that a little bit for us?
4:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I guess if you look back at some of the regulations and rules that first nations actually live under, they are relatively onerous. Many of them are old and unenforced. I guess I should have put prefaces. A lot of this stuff may not be an actual factor today, but it's within living memory, so it creates a kind of mythology.
First nations people within the last 40 years, for example, if they had agricultural produce they had to have approval from the government to sell it. That's not the case today, but that kind of regulatory overburden is a hangover that still sits there. The Indian Act is a kind of institution regulating the lives of Indian people separately from anyone else. This is something that many people find a real burden, and it is invasive.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK
Right. Thank you.
In your view, what are the top three barriers that need to be addressed in the area of lands that would specifically improve first nations' ability to access economic development opportunities on reserve? What do you think are the top three?
4:50 p.m.
As an Individual
I think the question of land tenure is important; the question of local decision-making in terms of leasing or designating lands for long-term leases, doing that quickly, with little red tape; and I think a very clear environmental management regime that provides certainty for the long term. I think those three things are key.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK
Okay.
In the absence of legislative and regulatory amendments, what could be done in the short term to implement immediate improvements to address some of the common barriers to economic development and land use through programs, policies, or procedures?
4:50 p.m.
As an Individual
As I think I said at the outset, probably the biggest barrier right now is still access to capital.
4:50 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes, even with the land tenures and such.
For anybody's who's tried to start a business, the first thing a banker will say is “What's your track record?” If you tell them you don't have a track record and you live on a first nation, they'll say, “Maybe you'd better go and see the bank next door.” Even with the government banks, the interest rates are very high.
So if there's any way to create better capital institutions, put some more money into the aboriginal capital institutions, and get that money flowing.... It's kind of like Greece, I guess, in a way, in that we have to get some capital, get it from the right places, and create some momentum.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you very much, Mr. Boughen.
We'll turn to Ms. Morin now, for five minutes. She'll be sharing her time with Mr. Genest-Jourdain, if there's time.
May 17th, 2012 / 4:50 p.m.
NDP
Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon, Mr. Shanks. Welcome to the committee.
This is also the first time I have been on this committee, but I do have some questions for you, nevertheless. I found your presentation quite informative.
In your report on economic development in first nations, you talk about the importance of coordinating all the efforts of the various levels of government and the aboriginal communities.
The state of housing on reserves is well-known. We've all seen the pictures of housing conditions in Attawapiskat. Just last week, a press release came out; it stated that many people still were still living in insecure housing. Some even live in trailers.
It is a fact that the current conditions on many reserves significantly impede their development, economic, social or otherwise.
You may know that I recently sponsored a bill aimed at ensuring Canadians have secure, adequate, accessible and affordable housing. The bill would require the minister responsible for the CMHC to work with all stakeholders, especially aboriginal communities, to establish a national housing strategy.
Do you think a similar strategy, requiring the various levels of government and first nations to work together, could be one way to find long-term solutions for these communities? Could it also help achieve healthy and sustainable economic development?
4:50 p.m.
As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
The short answer is yes. The whole question of housing is central to sustainable communities; it's central to healthy communities and it's a very significant economic driver. If you look at virtually any community of any size, probably the largest industry in that community is housing. It's building houses. It's fixing houses. It's maintaining houses. It's creating roads to build new houses. So housing is a very significant part of communities.
The issue that first nations have with housing is an incredibly complicated one. There are situations where housing is not a problem for first nations. There are various reasons why that is. Often it's a result of going back to this notion of creating self-sufficiency, self-esteem, where communities decide they're going to take charge of their future. I can recall being in some communities where the chief is taking me around and showing me a number of houses that they're building and saying, “I decided we'd better do this, because if I waited for you it would never happen.” So the notion of finding ways to create community momentum behind their own needs really does result in good things.
This is easier to say than it is to actually pull off, because a lot of first nations communities have some serious social issues. As to the cause of those social issues, you can point fingers all over the place, but the fact is that they remain. Until those are really dealt with, it's really quite difficult to create a housing strategy that is going to work. As long as we continue to simply provide houses, I think we're probably destined to fail. People who don't have a stake in their future don't have a stake in their future. Those who do, who really care, who are going to work towards it, tend to create a more positive environment, and it often results in a healthier community.
I think tackling housing is a great way to start, but it's not easy. It's not for lack of trying that there's still a housing problem.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you very much.
We're going to turn now to Mr. Payne, for five minutes.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
Thank you, Chair.
And thank you, Mr. Shanks, for coming today.
I read through your report, and one of that things in it that interested me was on land tenure. We were just on a fact-finding mission to a number of the reserves, and we saw that the FNLMA has been a successful vehicle. I think you indicated that in your report on development, and how attention needs to be paid to rapidly expanding that application. I know you've talked a little bit about land tenure. How do you see that as a tool for ensuring that this is expanded and opportunities are created?
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
From what I understand, the number of communities getting involved in the lands management act is rapidly increasing. Again, the reason why it was so difficult to get communities into that is the notion of really understanding what their land base was, what interests there were in it. Often there were lots of leases that had to be clarified, etc. More and more communities that have gone through that work can now get to the point where they can take on the actual aspect of managing their own land and making local decisions. So that's got to be a positive thing. It's not a silver bullet that's going to solve the problem, but without it they're going to have more difficulty.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
So what do you see as the potential 10 or 15 years down the road for the FNLM regime?
4:55 p.m.
As an Individual
From what I can tell, more and more communities are taking this on. They tend to be viewing it, in large measure, as a bit of self-government. That's a positive thing. Communities that are prepared to take responsibility for their own governance, and the outcomes, I think that's very positive. One of the biggest problems with many first nations has been that they tended to point the finger at somebody else when things went wrong. With the land management act, communities are saying “We're grown up enough to take charge, and if we make mistakes we'll take responsibility for it and we'll work through it”. I think that's a very positive thing for everyone.