Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 15th, 2012

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

What we essentially have now is standardized reporting. This has made the audit function actually more standardized as well. This has created more competition among the audit houses. This is creating a good result. We expect that this will make comparisons easier. It will make reporting easier. It will make the audit function more straightforward. Presumably, the layman will be able to cotton on to what all this reporting actually means, with a little bit of study.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Minister.

We are tight for time.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Sure.

You have answered most of it.

Beyond the bill, what has been done to date to reduce the reporting burden on first nations?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

In actual fact, I think we've responded pretty comprehensively to that.

The individual we put in charge of that project was a senior official, a former regional director general from British Columbia. It was someone who had been in the department his entire career. I think there's still some work forthcoming. Just because we've reduced it by 80% doesn't mean that we're finished.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll turn now to Mr. Bevington for the last five minutes.

Colleagues, we do have some housekeeping business to deal with. I know we're pressing on some people's schedules, but right after Mr. Bevington is complete with his five minutes, can we move into some future business? Thanks so much.

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Minister, for appearing in front of us on this particular bill.

I am a little confused by some of the things you've said here. I'd like to understand what you consider the relationship between the federal government and first nations. Is it nation to nation? Is it government to government? Is that the relationship you see?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Yes, I think we very much have a government-to-government relationship. That is very apparent, even in multiple documents we've jointly signed.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Okay.

Some of your argument for taking this particular tack with first nations is based on provincial and territorial governments having adopted similar practices. The vast majority have legislation that requires their municipal governments to do so as well.

Did the federal government insist on the provinces providing financial disclosure practices, or was that something they came to themselves under their understanding of what they need for their government to run properly?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

If you're referencing municipal governments....

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

No. I'm referencing provincial and territorial governments. Municipal governments are creatures of those two bodies.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

That's correct.

No, we had no role to play in the—

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

You had no role to play in that.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

—transparency and accountability of the provinces and territories.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

But you didn't make a choice for those governments, did you? And you're making a choice for these governments, first nations governments, about how they should portray themselves in the public eye, open to every single Canadian.

Now you say that what we're asking of chiefs and councillors is no different from what we ask of ourselves as parliamentarians. Chiefs and councillors are not parliamentarians. They're not elected by the public of Canada. They are elected by first nations people. They have a different relationship than what a parliamentarian has with the public of Canada. Don't you agree?

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Sure.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Well then....

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

I'm not sure what you're suggesting, though.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I'm going to the basic principle.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Are you suggesting that they don't report publicly?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

The basic principle of this bill, I think, is what turns off most first nations. They expect that they will make the rules for their conduct, just as other governments make the rules for their conduct.

What you've done is taken a very paternalistic approach to this, in that you've said that these are the rules by which you will govern yourself. That's the problem that I think the AFN referenced as well in their opposition to this legislation. They want to be treated as governments. As governments, they would expect that they make their rules for disclosure, not the federal government.

The federal government has some financial accounting requirements that are from a relationship between the aboriginal government and the federal government. For those to be made public should be the responsibility of both parties, not an individual party, as you have put forward with this legislation.

[John Duncan, Conservative, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Dennis, we have 34 self-governing first nations across the country. Under their agreements, they have their reporting mechanisms. For the other 582 first nations, the Indian Act is silent on transparency and accountability.

We are bringing the 21st century to first nations governments, whose citizens and members are currently asking the department for information that should be coming from the first nations governments themselves, in some cases.

This is inappropriate. We have an obligation, as the senior level of government, to ensure that those Canadian citizens have the same rights as other Canadian citizens.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

You have about 20 seconds. We could certainly use that for our next witness.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I would say quite clearly that if moving into the 21st century means we're going to make more decisions for first nations, I think it is the wrong attitude. I think we have to treat first nations as governments, just as we treat the provinces and territories as governments, and the relationship should be encouraged in that direction.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Dennis.

We appreciate those comments, but I don't think there was a question in that.

Minister, we do want to thank you for your time today. We certainly appreciate it. We know you had a busy day and we are thankful you were able to be here and to stay for the extra time as well.

Colleagues, we'll suspend for a matter of three minutes to clear the room. We'll move in camera then and deal with our housekeeping committee business, and then we'll be free to go.

[Proceedings continue in camera]