Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 17th, 2012

[Chief Darcy M. Bear]

We do have measures in place, which I talked about. We have the chief and council compensation commission.

Right now, as far as the audits being shared, that's something we do as leadership, but there is nothing right inside our own legislation. That's one of the things we're working on through our self-government process, to have in our own Whitecap constitution—I'm not talking about the Canadian Constitution, but inside our own community constitution—that this financial information has to be shared. But it's not there yet. As far as the self-government negotiations, that takes a few years.

We just got through the framework agreement and now we're at the agreement-in-principle stage. We're working with our community members to ensure that this is entrenched within our own constitution, that our future leaders have to share that information.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Would you agree with the Assembly of First Nations, who were suggesting in their resolution that the first nations themselves would like to pursue that kind of legislation within their own nation?

[Chief Darcy M. Bear]

I think that's something we want to pursue. But let’s say it wasn't in place. What happens? Let’s say I die tomorrow and there was a leadership change and the next leader didn't want to share anything. How do you guarantee that somebody is going to share that with the people?

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

What do you think the repercussions should be if the information isn't shared? Do you agree that the money should be seized by the government?

[Chief Darcy M. Bear]

As far as I'm concerned, we're going to share it, so that doesn't impact us.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

What if you didn't?

[Chief Darcy M. Bear]

I'm just saying that this is where we're coming from; this is our stance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much.

We'll turn to Ms. Block, for seven minutes.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome you here, Chief Bear, and Murray and Lisa. It's good to have you here.

In January 2011, you announced your support of my private member's bill, which you referenced. Then in November 2011, Minister Duncan and I had the privilege to announce Bill C-27 at the Whitecap Dakota First Nation.

Every time I hear your story, from the time that you became a chief—it's a compelling story, it's an inspiring story, and I just want to commend your commitment to transparency and accountability. It seems to me that you would say that financial transparency and accountability actually build the capacity in a first nation to move forward and to fulfill the dreams they have of being successful as a community and as a first nation.

I also want to thank you for raising the concerns you have regarding the current drafting of Bill C-27, and for sharing your proposed amendments with us.

My question is, are the issues you just outlined Whitecap Dakota's only concerns with Bill C-27?

[Lisa Dunville]

In response, and adding to what Chief Bear said, I think the issues really are as he outlined: the definition of remuneration and splitting that apart from other expenses that would be reimbursed to individuals outlined in the bill. That's simply so there isn't misinterpretation in terms of remuneration versus expenses. He did refer to the Income Tax Act and the definition of remuneration under that act.

I think the idea is that we need to be consistent, so that there isn't some miscommunication or misinterpretation if that information is to be made public.

As we mentioned, the second issue is to make sure, under generally accepted accounting principles, that you aren't inadvertently scoping in entities that aren't intended to be scoped in as part of this bill.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

You would say that the proposed amendments that you have just shared with us would fully address all the concerns you have with this bill.

[Lisa Dunville]

I'm not sure what copy you have. We did share one with the clerk as we walked in today. I don't know if that's been fully circulated, but those are the amendments we're proposing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Colleagues, we do have the document the chief has presented to our committee. Unfortunately, it's not in both official languages. We can do this in one of two ways. As you know, I'm forbidden from circulating that document until it's been translated, unless I get consensus from the committee to circulate it. It may be helpful to committee members to see it as the testimony, but I respect the decision either way.

Seeing consensus, I will make sure....

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

But they will be translated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

They will immediately be translated. For the sake of this meeting, we'll have it circulated immediately.

Thank you.

I do apologize, Ms. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Just to clarify, then, the proposed amendments that are being circulated right now would fully address the concerns you would have with Bill C-27.

I know as well, Chief Bear, that Whitecap Dakota has had 21 straight unqualified audits. I know that you've shared that information in other venues and that you present your audits to your community members every year, and that you do this without any legislation requiring disclosure.

You've already shared with us your commitment to financial accountability and governance, and I just want to get your sense of how this legislation that's being introduced would enhance financial accountability and governance.

[Chief Darcy M. Bear]

We don't have any kind of mechanisms in our community legislation currently, and if a new leadership came in and decided they didn't want to share that financial information, there is no obligation for them to do so. I think it's important going forward that all Whitecap members know what's happening in our community from a financial perspective: where we are, if we are financially healthy, what kind of shape we are in.

I think it's important that there is a mechanism to catch that for our members. As leaders, we have to share that. Unfortunately, as I said, when I was first elected, there was no such bill in place. I didn't know the financial health of my community when I first got involved. After being elected, it was a shock to find out that we had no money. We were overdrawn. We had a stack of payables. We owed everyone money. We weren't able to do any business with anyone. Nobody wants to experience that. I think we want to ensure that our communities are healthy.

I also talk about capacity. I think it's very important that first nations do have the appropriate capacity to hire professional accountants so they can address the onus reporting requirements, so that as leaders we can get good financial information at our boardroom tables. I think so many times you see communities who are having a hard time making good decisions, whether it be to build 20 houses.... If the financial clerk has given them poor information and they build the 20 houses and find out from the auditor they're $5 million in the red, you're now going to a third party. But if they had a professional accountant in their organization who could say they couldn't build 20 houses, they could build five and they're going to be okay, that's the kind of information that's needed.

It's no different from your table, where you need to have good financial information to make good decisions as leaders. That's the same thing that first nations people should have as well—the professional capacity to make those good decisions for the people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

There are 16 seconds left, if you have a short question.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

I do.

Do you believe this legislation is an important step forward for first nations?

[Chief Darcy M. Bear]

As I said, it's ensuring that we're sharing our information with our people.

There have been many times that other first nations members have approached me and said they wished their community was doing the same thing that we were doing.

If that answers your question, that's all I can say.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Ms. Block.

We'll turn to Ms. Bennett now, for seven minutes.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Chief, and your team, for being here.

Thank you again for your hospitality. My husband wears his Dakota Dunes shirt with pride.

When we were in your community, you shared a letter with us that you had sent to Ms. Block, as well as a letter from KPMG, your accountants, as well as “track changes” suggestions for the bill. I see that today there are a few more changes.

I guess it was clear that scaring away business was a huge concern. But in terms of consultation, I was quite taken by the paragraph that said that before they came to your community for the press conference, if you'd only been given a backgrounder on the bill.... You were quite surprised when it was introduced in Parliament that it scoped in these other things. Your support had been for the previous bill that was really just for “chief and council”, not this other truly risky scoping-in, as Ms. Dunville said.

On Monday the minister said he was open to amendments. He used the word “clarification” a lot. But he made it sound like this bill doesn't mean you have to show the books of band-owned operations. I guess I'm unclear, and maybe you could help me on this. It's almost a year since you sent this letter. Have you been given any assurance that the amendments will be there and will take care of the concerns expressed in that December 2 letter?

I was concerned that on Monday the minister didn't seem to understand what's in this bill and why you would have concerns about the way it's written. We were pleased to hear that he's open to amendments.

Has there been a toing and froing? Are you coaching these people as to how we make this bill acceptable to you? What have you heard since your letter of December 2 last year?

[Chief Darcy M. Bear]

Well, first of all, I'm not a coach.

As I said, our original intent was supporting Kelly Block and Bill C-575. When you did make the announcement, unfortunately, there were certain procedures that have to happen here—it has to be translated into both languages and that—so we didn't get the opportunity to see the full bill. Once we did see the full bill, we had some concerns, but we raised them immediately.

We said we had some concerns, and I think I met with Kelly shortly after that and presented her with a letter. I did speak with our accountants to share the wording in the bill, and we said we had some concerns going forward.

We're not against accountability and transparency. That's very important.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I don't think anybody is.

[Chief Darcy M. Bear]

It's important for any organization. It's not just first nations communities. Whether you're a municipal, provincial, or federal government, or a non-profit or for-profit organization, accountability and transparency are very important, and having a strong financial track record is important.

What we're proposing is to get rid of the ambiguity. If the bill is moved forward the way it sits today, there is so much ambiguity in it that people could misinterpret it.

Businesses could look at that bill and say, “I am not going on first nations land. I'm not going to set up business there because I'm going to be held to a different standard when it comes to accounting.”

No longer do generally accepted accounting principles apply, but a whole new set of rules apply. I think what we have to do is take out all the ambiguity, make sure that the phrase “generally accepted accounting principles” is used in certain sections, so it's very clear, so that nobody can make that misinterpretation.

I think that's what we're trying to say. We're not trying to coach anyone. We're trying to say that in order to address the concerns we have, this is the language we want to put forward to address those concerns. This way, I guess it eliminates all the ambiguity. Businesses know that if they're setting up on Whitecap or Dundurn or Saskatoon, they're going to be treated the same way.