Evidence of meeting #45 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Prairie Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
Yes and no. Yes, we have the numbers. No, we don't have the names.
That's the big problem. We got a big spreadsheet that showed salary information, usually by province—with Atlantic Canada, they grouped them all as one—and you could see the pay information by community, but all the names were removed. That's what this legislation is all about: linking disclosure of names with pay amounts so that everyone knows what's going on.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
Do you agree with the Government of Quebec, which says that pay is personal information? Do you agree with the particular point of view that that government takes?
Prairie Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
Not when it comes to a politician's pay. I mean, if someone is earning pay for work that is not related to being an elected official.... For example, if you yourself have a part-time job delivering newspapers or something and you get income from that, by all means, that's your private information. When you receive money from the House of Commons and the taxpayers, we believe that information should be public.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
That choice on how we disclose information was made by this Parliament, by this government, by the elected officials. We've made choices about how that goes. Do you think the first nations should have that choice as well?
Prairie Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
You made that comment previously about government-to-government funding. If you look at funding between governments throughout Canada, there are all kinds of rules and regulations with that funding. When the federal government gives the provincial governments money for health care, they can't simply take those dollars and go out and build a giant statue of Barney the dinosaur. They have to use it for health care.
It's completely reasonable for the federal government to say, look, if we are giving reserves money to operate, we want those politicians to be up front, just as every other politician in the country has to be. I mean, for goodness' sakes, this is 2012, it's Canada, and we're having a discussion about whether or not politicians have to disclose their pay? The only people in this country who seem to be opposed to this are some politicians here in government and some reserve politicians. Talk to the grassroots: they want to know how much their politicians are making.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Craig.
We'll turn to Mr. Seeback now, for five minutes.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Joseph, I'm going to address my questions to you this afternoon. You've been quoted—and I have the quote here, so hopefully I have it right—as saying:
We expect salary disclosure from politicians at all levels. So why would we expect anything different for First Nation leadership? The salaries for band leadership comes from taxpayer money, so the public has a right to compel disclosure.
That is the statement you've made, I take it?
Policy Analyst, Frontier Centre for Public Policy
I believe so, if you found that, yes.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
So why do you think community members should expect financial transparency and disclosure of salaries for their elected leaders? And why is it important?
Policy Analyst, Frontier Centre for Public Policy
Because it's a moral relationship. It's an ethical relationship. You are given funds and you are the steward of those funds and you have to distribute them according to the best interests of the recipients. Anything else is fraud, or all these kinds of words we use to describe that.
It's an ethical relationship. It can often be a legal relationship. When first nations enter contribution agreements, they have to sign them and spend money in a certain way, depending on the grant and whatnot.
It's the same thing for politicians in the mainstream communities. It is the same type of ethical and legal responsibilities.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
Do you think this legislation adequately responds to that need of having to disclose salaries of first nations leadership?
Policy Analyst, Frontier Centre for Public Policy
In terms of band chief and council—it doesn't include tribal councils, which I think probably it should be expanded to, or child and family services for first nations. But insofar as identifying any public moneys or moneys that are used for band entities that are basically economic arms of the government, that's in the legislation; they have to define it that way. I think the bill does a very good job of trying to achieve that objective of disclosing salaries.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
Some we heard last week at committee seemed to think that this legislation is going to place a higher standard of financial disclosure than that on other levels of government. Do you think that's true or accurate? Do you agree or disagree with that, and why?
Policy Analyst, Frontier Centre for Public Policy
The main requirement is for the first nation to place the three types of information on a website insofar as bands receive band support funding that would likely come from that. We deal with first nations, without this legislation, that do that already, and that comes out of their funds. In terms of setting up a website and disclosing that information, I don't think that's much more costly or onerous than for other levels of government.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
That's great.
Phyllis, with respect to my question talking about salary disclosure, do you think Bill C-27 is going to adequately address that issue?
President, Peguis Accountability Coalition
I sure hope so because as an ordinary band member I see a real struggle on the reserve. I can just speak about my own experience and my own reserve. When people found out the salaries of some chief and council members they were pretty outraged. It's pretty hard to live on social assistance, which many people have to live on, which is $111 every two weeks. Then they see the chief and council making salaries that are sometimes over $200,000. These people are struggling. They obviously don't see any improvements in their lives on the reserves, so of course they want to know where all the money is going and why the chief and council are getting such huge salaries.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
Do you think this is going to be an important step forward?
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
Why do you think this disclosure is so important? Do you think it's going to create discussion on reserve?
President, Peguis Accountability Coalition
Yes, it is, and I think it's going to be important to the members. I can see them even taking it a step further and the members naming what the chief and council should be making.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Brampton West, ON
With respect to your experience, and I heard what you and others talked about, do you think this will make the process much easier for people, so they don't have to go through some of the kinds of things that you've suggested that you and others have gone through?
President, Peguis Accountability Coalition
Yes. The process has to be clearer for people, and I don't know how you're going to do it. The fear of talking and the fear of backlash is all real if you live in a community, because you're treated like an outcast.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Mr. Seeback. I do apologize; your time is up.
We'll turn to Ms. Hughes now, for five minutes.
NDP
Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON
Thank you very much. I appreciate your attendance here today.
Mr. Graham, clause 13 identifies a range of administrative measures that the minister can take in the event of a breach by a first nation of any duty imposed by the proposed legislation.
As we see the proposed measures include requiring council to develop an action plan to remedy the breach, withhold funds, or terminate any funding agreement, given the impact this would have on first nations if the funds were withheld or if they had to terminate the funding agreement, can I maybe have your perspective on the impact this would have on the first nations and whether or not you see that as a suitable solution?