Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 29th, 2012

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

But specifically when I talk about the disclosure of salaries in the audited financial statements, you would say that this bill would compare with those standards elsewhere in Canada?

[Jerome Berthelette]

I'm not really in a position to be able to answer specific questions about all the other governments' financial statements.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

I'll use the specific example of the two cites in my home province of Alberta, Calgary and Edmonton. Those cities have included that in their audited financial statements. I'm curious as to whether you'd see this as being in line with that type of disclosure.

Mr. Campbell, did you have a response?

[Ronnie Campbell]

Yes. I think this bill is calling for some similar types of information. I think Mr. Berthelette mentioned a couple of things.

One, you don't tend to see them in with the financial statements. For example, here in the federal government, it's public knowledge, available to the public, what the salary scales are for senior officials. For folks like you, on the Internet there's all your travel and hospitality, completely separate but transparent, as opposed to being part of the financial statements.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

What it boils down to is that, in most instances in Canada, the salaries of elected officials are disclosed publicly, correct?

[Ronnie Campbell]

That's correct.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Thank you.

Now—

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Richards. You have less than eight seconds left. I'd hate to have you get into another question and not have time for the answer.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

All right. Well, you're cutting me short here, Mr. Chair, but I also have to accept your verdict.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

We'll give it to Ms. Bennett. Now we have your full allocation of time.

Ms. Bennett, we'll turn to you, for seven minutes.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Thanks very much.

I just need clarification, Mr. Chair, as to when we'll deal with our motion about bringing part of the budget implementation bill to this committee. Will we vote on the motion today?

It's not only the part that, as I understand it, has been understood in terms of the Indian Act. We were also asking that the expertise around aboriginal fishing rights be brought to this committee as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

If there's consensus from the committee, I think it would be best if we dealt with that at the end of the meeting. But we should allocate some time for that, if in fact....

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I think there's a sense that that's the appropriate time to deal with it. So we'll do that.

Thanks, Ms. Bennett.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you for coming. I'd just like to follow up on my colleague's questions around the burden of reporting.

There seems to be quite a difference in opinion. The minister has stated clearly that this act will reduce the burden of reporting for first nations, whereas the first nations themselves are concerned it will increase the burden of reporting. I know you're not allowed to talk about the bill, as it is technical, but could you just tell me whether...?

I'm not clear how this could reduce the burden of reporting, based on your concerns from 2002 and the fact that you hadn't seen any progress in 2011.

Can you let the committee know how you think this bill will affect the burden of reporting?

[Ronnie Campbell]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't know how this bill will affect the burden of reporting. If the requirements that are in place are to adjust what's currently done in terms of reporting.... Each first nation gets audited every year by an accounting firm and posts the results. If it's just an adjustment to what's already happening, then it doesn't need to be an addition to the reporting burden.

The reporting burden, in relation to first nations, is driven in large part by how they're funded, through a myriad of contribution agreements with all of the conditions in them and all the reporting requirements in individual agreements. That's where the big flood of reporting gets this requirement from.

I would say that unless and until that changes, it's difficult to see how the reporting burden will be significantly lessened.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

I wonder if you've had a chance to see the proposed amendments that Chief Darcy Bear put before this committee. We saw them when we travelled to his community in the spring.

We were hoping that the minister and the government would accept them. I think they deal with some of the concerns you had in the technical aspects of the bill, separating remuneration into both salary and reimbursement, and also the issues around the open books on band-owned businesses.

Have you had a chance to look at them?

[Ronnie Campbell]

No, we haven't.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Okay.

I think, Mr. Chair, sometimes, when there have been concerns like this, it would be interesting for us, after we've seen the amendments...and hopefully they'll be government amendments.

Again, we would love your feedback on whether or not you think that would deal with some of the concerns you've outlined here in your opening remarks on the technical aspects of the bill. Would you be able to do that and let the committee know?

[Ronnie Campbell]

I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, that we would accept any invitation from the committee, as long as it is kept to those things that we're competent to speak about.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

One of the concerns from when we first met with the officials...they didn't seem to keep track of the number of complaints from community members about the transparency. Yet this bill seems to have risen out of a concern that community members had to go to the minister if they had concerns, in order for the minister to be able to enact or enforce the transparency.

In any of your previous audits, did you find how many complaints would come from a community to the minister?

[Jerome Berthelette]

Mr. Chair, we don't have that particular information.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

But in the satisfaction of carrying out its job, do you think those are numbers that the department needs to keep? It's also to find out how many people they're coming from, because sometimes you get 200 complaints from two people.

[Jerome Berthelette]

Mr. Chair, I think that's probably a question that is best posed to departmental officials.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I think you will be hearing again from departmental officials, Ms. Bennett, and we can maybe direct that to them.