Evidence of meeting #47 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jerome Berthelette  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Ronnie Campbell  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Terry Goodtrack  President and Chief Executive Officer, Aboriginal Financial Officers Association of Canada
Dana Soonias  Chair, Aboriginal Financial Officers Association of Canada

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Jerome Berthelette

The situation of first nations and that of other governments do not differ greatly. First nations are governments. They therefore find themselves in the same position as other governments. They must use accountants and have an accountability framework in place, as far as relationships with their members, the government and other individuals go.

with whom they interact—partners, businesses, banks. So they're in the same situation as any other government in their accountability relationships. In that sense, the handbook should apply to them.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

You also mentioned problems associated with combining salaries and reimbursed expenses when reporting the remuneration of officials, as well as travel expenses.

In your opinion, Mr. Berthelette, what potentially negative or positive consequences would follow if we did proceed to aggregate financial information pertaining to salaries, reimbursed expenses, travel costs and other expenses, as per the bill we are currently reviewing?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Jerome Berthelette

Mr. Chairman, I will respond in English.

To have a statement of one amount per chief and council member that incorporates salary, expenses, and honoraria would lead a user to believe that the amount there is all salary, when in fact it's not all salary.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

Thank you.

How many minutes do I have left?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

You have one minute and a half left.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Jonathan Genest-Jourdain NDP Manicouagan, QC

In that case, I will share my time.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you.

I want to follow up on the issue of the current reporting that first nations do. In a statement before the committee, Mr. Paul indicated that all information required by the new act is already being provided by the first nations in Canada to AANDC as per their existing funding agreement over years and decades. Only last year, the issue was pushed to the forefront, and now a bill will require all first nations to comply or else INAC or AANDC will release the information, and as a last resort all funding would be stopped.

Without commenting on the bill, in your experience, do the reports currently between the federal government and first nations—I mean, there are audited financial statements. I assume that some of the remuneration, own-source revenue is reported to federal governments as it is currently.

4:15 p.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Jerome Berthelette

Mr. Chair, as I understand it, first nations are required to provide consolidated financial statements. They're required to provide them in accordance with the CICA Public Sector Accounting Handbook. They are also required to prepare a schedule of remuneration.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you, Ms. Crowder.

We'll turn now to Mr. Rickford for the last five minutes.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to the witnesses for coming today.

Understanding the parameters under which you have graciously agreed to come here and provide some input, I think it bears mentioning at the outset of my comments and questions that I appreciated that in your speech you identified four subclauses of one particular clause. Despite you not being aware that we had heard from a first nation as a witness on this, and they did in fact submit proposed amendments, it's fair to say two things. One, this committee is seriously considering these amendments. In fact, the government is looking at advancing these amendments. That's important for our discussion today because they deal in two instances with the substance of why you raised them. Specifically, I believe you laid out in paragraph 14 your concerns with respect to clause 2, and in paragraph 13 you referred to clause 6. Not having seen those amendments, gentlemen, I'm not asking you to comment, but for the benefit of my colleagues at this committee, and perhaps for your general knowledge, we would be happy to say that we're looking at those amendments. I think they deal with issues that may be preoccupying us all.

Gentlemen, I'm going to change the channel very briefly and talk about what's on the mind of some of my colleagues, particularly those across the way. In fairness and out of respect for them, I'd like you to comment on your understanding of any improvements subsequent to the reporting initiative we launched in July 2010 to address various issues raised by the Office of the Auditor General. I refer to recommendations coming from the 2006 independent blue ribbon panel on grants and contribution programs and the policy on transfer payments released by the government in 2008—that's a mouthful—particularly with respect to risk-based reporting. Could you comment on any improvements, either with respect to those or to formal reports in terms of that load being reduced?

4:15 p.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Jerome Berthelette

We have not actually done a follow-up of the most recent report—which Mr. Campbell will speak to—but I've had some discussions and interactions with departmental officials. They have advised me that the department is undertaking a review of the reporting requirements. They are working in particular with Health Canada's First Nations and Inuit Health Branch to look at how, between them, they can reduce the reporting requirements. That is something that is fairly recent; it occurred after the 2011 report. Considering that between those two departments they represent 80% of the funding that goes to communities, and that 80% of the funding is what generates the reports, I'm hopeful that the departments will succeed in reducing reporting requirements through that exercise.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

We look forward to that scrutiny from the Auditor General. This initiative, started by a senior official in the department, has seen what we would consider to be significant reductions in ad hoc and informal use of reports. At the end of fiscal year 2010-11, there were more than 4,800 reports. At the end of fiscal 2011-12, that number appears to be falling significantly to just over 800. With respect to formal reports, a little bigger challenge, there still seems to be every indication that this will be reduced in the 20% range. This is a fairly strong indication that what we do with our reports is related to why we require certain kinds of reporting under certain kinds of agreements.

Did you want to comment on that, Mr. Berthelette or Mr. Campbell?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Ronnie Campbell

As members will know, the Auditor General has commented on several occasions on the reporting burden placed on first nations. The last time we did so was in the spring of 2011, at which time we hadn't observed a notable improvement at all. It will be with some interest that at some point we'll follow up and determine if this has indeed improved.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Would you agree, though, Mr. Campbell, that the pilot projects we have under way in communities, in which the communities report directly to their citizens as part of this initiative, rather than reporting to the department, would be a useful exercise?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Ronnie Campbell

Yes. I mean, accountability between first nations and the federal government is one issue, but within first nations is another issue. Certainly, for people who have an interest, whether it's people who have an interest in a company or a community, the more information they have and the more transparency there is for them, the better.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Do I have more time, Mr. Chair?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

No, Mr. Rickford. Your time is up.

Colleagues, that is the end of our first hour.

We want to thank each of you for coming today, Mr. Campbell and Mr. Berthelette. We appreciate your testimony and your willingness to answer our questions as well.

Colleagues, we'll suspend for a few minutes to get the next witnesses up.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Colleagues, we'll call the meeting back to order. This is the second hour of meeting number 47 of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

For the second hour, we have witnesses from the Aboriginal Financial Officers Association of Canada. With us today we have Mr. Soonias, as well as Mr. Goodtrack.

Thanks so much for coming in. We appreciate your willingness to bring us your opening statement and then allow time for questions.

We'll turn it over to you now for approximately 10 minutes, and then we'll begin with questioning.

October 29th, 2012 / 4:25 p.m.

Terry Goodtrack President and Chief Executive Officer, Aboriginal Financial Officers Association of Canada

First of all, I would like to thank the Auditor General's office for presenting. Certainly, at AFOA Canada, we believe in many of the things the Auditor General said. We appreciate following the Office of the Auditor General.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, vice-chair, committee members, colleagues, and friends for this opportunity to speak on the substance of Bill C-27, the First Nations Financial Transparency Act.

My name is Terry Goodtrack, and I am the president and chief executive officer of the Aboriginal Financial Officers Association of Canada, or AFOA Canada. With me is Dana Soonias, who is the AFOA Canada chair.

It is the views of the AFOA Canada membership and these views alone that I express.

The Aboriginal Financial Officers Association of Canada is a non-political, not-for-profit organization. Our mission is to contribute to aboriginal social and economic prosperity by building a professional workforce that supports effective governance and administration. The bill before this committee speaks to goals that are at the very core of AFOA Canada's mandate. AFOA Canada not only agrees with the principles of transparency and accountability, but has spent over a decade developing capacity development tools and products to advance these principles in all aboriginal communities across Canada, including Inuit, Métis, and first nations communities.

Our resources and products include education, certification programs, and the development and promotion of aboriginal finance and management credentials, including the certified aboriginal financial manager, or CAFM, designation. The CAFM designation is based on rigorous competency and ethical standards and a combination of education and experience requirements. It is quickly becoming the preferred designation for aboriginal finance and management professionals. We're very pleased to be able to say this, and pleased also to have been approached by the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants to weigh in on the CICA Public Sector Accounting Handbook as it relates to first nations reporting.

As mentioned by the Auditor General's office in 2009, a number of AFOA Canada professionals were part of a study group on financial reporting by first nations. This group of AFOA Canada professionals and other interested parties, including the Office of the Auditor General, recommended to the CICA that the common government reporting model described in the CICA Public Sector Accounting Handbook should apply to first nations governments.

Unfortunately, this is the first opportunity AFOA Canada has had to participate in Bill C-27. From AFOA Canada's perspective, the underlying principles of Bill C-27 are laudable. Canadian citizens may view this proposed act as primarily a financial issue associated with fundamental principles of transparency and accountability. However, we feel as though this proposed bill touches upon broader issues, some of which have been raised here by first nations leaders. We would like to discuss these and related issues from a slightly different perspective. One question our members are asking is why this proposed bill is necessary.

The requirement for consolidated audits and disclosure of salaries, honoraria, travel, and other remuneration has been within the funding agreements between first nations and the federal government for over 15 years. It is included within an AANDC document entitled the Year-end Financial Reporting Handbook, with which first nations must comply. Failure to comply means that the federal government withholds funding from the first nation. When we examine the requirement for preparing and disclosing consolidated audits, a question arises when these audits are considered under the lens of accountability. That question is this: accountability to whom, and for what?

We've heard our members working in first nations communities clearly state that they have no disagreement with providing consolidated audits and salary disclosures for their members. This is the primary accountability of first nations. In terms of the accountability relationship between first nations and the crown, our first nations members have no issue with providing financial information on the funds provided by the federal government. Why is it necessary to disclose to the federal government, or to the general public, including potential competitors to first nations businesses, those funds that are not provided by federal government transfers, such as own-source revenues?

It should be noted, however, that first nations do provide consolidated audits to the federal government because it is a requirement within the funding agreement and in the year-end reporting handbook. However, the federal government cannot disclose this information to the general public because it is protected as confidential under another piece of government legislation called the Access to Information Act.

I bring to your attention the Sawridge decision, which may have some bearing on this issue.

In terms of comparability, I ask, does this act hold first nations to a higher standard, a lower standard, or to the same standard as other like entities?

The schedules of salaries, honoraria, and travel of different levels of government have different models. Some, such as those of the Province of Ontario, have a threshold where salaries must be disclosed over $100,000, with taxable benefits, or there are the municipalities within the Province of British Columbia, where the remuneration over $75,000 is disclosed.

In terms of when audits are due, first nations are required to finalize and submit their audits 120 days after the fiscal year-end, which is July 29. Yet the Province of Ontario tables their public accounts before the assembly 180 days after year-end, except in extraordinary circumstances. The federal government must lay the public accounts before the House of Commons on or before December 31.

The current bill reads that the requirement is that a first nation's consolidated audit shall remain accessible to the public on an Internet site for 10 years. We are uncertain why this length of time was chosen.

We would like to discuss another issue, the issue of administrative burden. As stated earlier, consolidated audits have been a requirement since the mid-1990s. This is a generally accepted accounting principle in accordance with the CICA handbook. As mentioned earlier, AFOA Canada was part of recommending to the CICA's Public Sector Accounting Board that the first nations adopt the common government reporting model.

There is, however, a second document produced by AANDC that further defines additional administrative financial reporting, entitled the Year-end Financial Reporting Handbook, as amended from time to time. The additional schedules are introduced through this document, and many times at the very last minute, to accommodate the different funding mechanisms used by the federal government. The last introduction of these schedules was released May 2012 and applied retroactively to the previous year. This caused confusion among our members on what was actually required.

AFOA Canada was not involved in providing input to these financial schedules. When I review the requirements of the schedule of salaries, honoraria, travel, and other remuneration for the first nation or by any entity it controls, I can see that this will add to administrative costs.

Further clarification is required on what “including their personal capacity” actually means within the proposed bill, or whether this is an audited schedule. The act does not specify that it should be an audited schedule, yet the AANDC's year-end reporting handbook requires that it receive an auditor's attestation.

These types of reporting lead to increased costs. Who pays for these additional costs?

To further complicate matters, these types of administrative burdens are being introduced at a time when the government is cutting tribal council advisory services in financial management. Who will provide advisory services to first nations if and when required?

We have also noted that there is much discussion on comparing first nations to other governments. Minister Duncan mentioned first nations governments in his testimony here as a witness, yet the words “first nations governments” are not stated within this proposed bill. We ask, why are we comparing first nations to other governments when even this proposed bill does not acknowledge first nations as governments? Without this clarity, we are concerned that this proposed bill may be wrongly construed as requiring a group of Canadians to do more than what is asked of any other group of Canadians.

Is this act necessary? Without addressing the concerns that we have raised, AFOA Canada cannot support the current Bill C-27 as written. If it is to go forward, here are some recommendations.

AFOA Canada recommends that the committee undertake the following amendments: view this proposed act through the lens of accountability, to whom and for what; ensure that first nations are not required to do more than truly comparable entities; ensure that the requirements of this proposed legislation do not increase administrative burden without ensuring that funding of these costs is a factor; ensure that AFOA Canada is involved in any changes to the year-end reporting handbook that affect first nations financial statements and that it is resourced accordingly to undertake this work; and state within this proposed legislation the word “government” after the words “first nations”.

Thank you again for this opportunity to speak on a very important matter.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you very much.

I should just mention to the witnesses that we do want to thank you for taking time out of your important schedules to be here.

We'll turn now to Mr. Bevington for the first seven minutes.

4:35 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

Thank you.

I want to thank you, witnesses, for coming in here and putting your case so very clearly to us. It is certainly what we've heard over and over again from first nations who have presented in front of us, the issues that you have identified in common.

There are also other issues that have come up. The gentleman presenting from the First Nations Financial Management Board, Mr. Calla, talked about how this bill wouldn't even cover everything that should be known in terms of reporting relationships, and about how, if you were really trying to dig into the remuneration relationships, this would not really get there.

Very interestingly, he also said that this bill didn't offer anything for improvement, as he felt that the financial report—a yearly financial report—gave a direction to what was going on with an audit. Do you want to comment on those things?

4:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Aboriginal Financial Officers Association of Canada

Terry Goodtrack

The relationship we're looking at here is between the first nation and its citizens. We know that when they produce the consolidated audit...as I mentioned in my speech, first nations and our members have no issue with providing full disclosure to their members.

What I tried to convey is that this is nothing really in addition, in the sense that this has been a requirement since 1995 through the year-end reporting handbook. I think it's important to outline that once you produce an audited financial statement...I've always found that it's very difficult for anybody to interpret what the financial statement actually says. There have to be other types of information included in this for the citizens to understand what that may be.

We started a pilot project at AFOA Canada that is looking at the notion of interpreting financial statements for aboriginal citizens, and that's happening in the Mathias Colomb Cree Nation out of Manitoba. We're trying to come up with some different methods and indicators of interpreting financial and performance information so that citizens can actually understand the financial statements better.

In addition to that, we have another important initiative that is trying to increase the financial literacy of community members.

So we have those two initiatives going on at the same time.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

When it comes to expenses for travel and those types of things...when people travel, they may charter a plane. They may have a relationship with others.

How would an accountant sort out the precise numbers that should be charged to each individual for many of the group activities that take place on the part of first nations when they travel? To me, this would be a headache of immense proportions.

When I think of the travel that takes place in my riding by first nations—chief and council, chief and administrative officers—on a regular basis, things are not laid out like the travel of a member of Parliament. We're very specifically attached to our travel expenses.

Do you want to comment on that, and on the cost of accounting to determine the relationship of those expenses to each individual?

4:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Aboriginal Financial Officers Association of Canada

Terry Goodtrack

As an accountant, you would have to go back and change your chart of accounts and ensure that you can classify those categories appropriately. To undertake that for the first nations reporting entity, and then all of its entities subsequent to that, would mean increased costs to roll it all up.

Then you would have to ensure that you're going to receive the same type of information from the band businesses, from the other non-profits, from the other unincorporated enterprises and roll it up to a specific schedule. There certainly will be costs to that, and especially at a very difficult time, which is the year-end time when accountants are extremely busy.

In addition to that, what I'm trying to convey here is the need to make sure the particular disclosure of the schedule of salaries, honoraria, and travel is comparable to like entities; that it doesn't go beyond what is required of other like entities.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT

I agree with you on that. I don't think there's any disagreement here. In fact, this whole business...it is very difficult to understand why we have this bill in front of us. I'm with you on that; most of this information is available.

What is needed, obviously, is more incentives for first nations—and this was mentioned—to get involved with their own organized efforts to achieve better financial information, such as through the first nations financial management act.

Can you give us an opinion of how soon many of the first nations would be interested in participating in that act through your understanding of this?