Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 6th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

We have one minute for a response.

[Andrew Beynon]

The very quick answer is that the community can control their own government by dictating rules—their own expectations from their own government—in terms of environment assessment through the land code.

There's also a provision in the legislation, which I'll try to find and maybe come back to in a second, which dictates the scope of the issues that must be part of the environmental assessment process, where first nations, as I recall, are regulating, financing, undertaking projects on reserve. That's where the environmental assessment process is triggered. So it tries to cover a list.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

Mr. Rickford, for five minutes.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, Kris, Andrew, and Isabelle, and in particular Andrew and Kris. I've been bugging you, not just for the briefings on this subject matter, but some of the ideas around a broader topic that hopefully I'll get another chance in this meeting to talk about, and that's land modernization for economic development. Thank you for bringing some discipline to my sometimes tangential thoughts around this broad subject matter.

First of all, we talked about benefits for the signatories, and there was a piece that I want to be sure about. One of them obviously flows from the joint action plan the minister recently signed with National Chief Atleo, which placed a real emphasis on governance. One should appreciate how the FNLM helps strengthen first nations governance by supporting political and financial accountability through the development of a professional public service and business expertise.

Very briefly, folks, in these five minutes, how do we get there efficiently and effectively? In some instances that can be a quantum leap, although I appreciate you've got a regime process map in your deck that I think has some built-in features to it.

I'll let you go on that.

[Andrew Beynon]

That's a very interesting question.

I would stress, again, that it's relatively new legislation. We're collectively learning lessons as we go. I think we're at a very good stage now to capitalize upon those lessons.

Many of the existing first nations under the FNLM regime have considerable experience. The Lands Advisory Board and the resource centre are institutions that have gained a lot of experience as well. With those two components in particular, the potential for being very effective and efficient in terms of new first nations coming into the FNLM regime I think is greater than ever before.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Sometimes, Andrew, these things get done well and we don't necessary have a record of it. We hear buzzwords like “centres of excellence” and “best practices”, but is there the potential for a record of these successes, a mechanism for first nations who are farther along in the process to work and share their positive experiences with other first nations, as an example?

[Kris Johnson]

I'll provide a point of view on that.

The experience I described earlier in the relatively short lifespan of the legislation, where there was a slow uptake and then accelerating to a point where we now have a demand that exceeds our capacity, provides a strong indication that those stories are being shared; they are inspiring other nations to designate their interest in this initiative. The potential has been proven. It's no longer simply a potential.

Mr. Beynon described earlier the experience of Westbank First Nation and Tsawwassen First Nation moving from this initiative into more comprehensive self-government arrangements. Through informal discussions with those communities, it has been suggested to us that the experience of governing themselves—their lands, environment, and natural resources—in effect proves to the community they were ready to take that next step into a more comprehensive arrangement.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thanks, Kris.

In the last minute and 15 seconds I want to talk about a couple of issues. Stakeholders of mine, not just in my political life but in my previous life, had serious discussions about some of the problems with the Indian Act, and those are land management processes. I'd like you to give me a couple of examples to make this concrete; one that would come to my mind, for example, is allotment land use.

Can you talk specifically about the timelines that are different from the Indian Act to the FNLM, and can you please provide us with any other concrete examples, with specific reference to timelines, that show us how practical this is on implementation?

Thank you.

[Andrew Beynon]

I'd be very pleased to do that.

I'll give you an example that I think is one of the most dramatic ones. Under the Indian Act, in order to lease land, for example, there is a process required that involves designating the lands for leasing purposes. Doing so requires a vote by the community. It also requires an interaction with the federal government to review the terms of the proposed designation. It also requires that the federal government look at the terms of the proposed lease. For some communities, the process of working through all of the documentation required to designate and make a decision on those lands and subsequently to enter into a lease on those lands takes about eight years.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Actually, I would say that allotment and land-use registrations and what you're talking about are just three examples that are dramatically sped up. Is that correct?

[Andrew Beynon]

Exactly. It would be significantly faster under FNLM.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you, Mr. Rickford.

Mr. Rafferty, you have five minutes.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you very much for being here. I have a couple of questions for you.

The first one is about the 32 first nations that have opted in. If things continue and they purchase land and land becomes attached to reserves and so on, does the process continue in the new lands that are added to the reserve lands?

[Andrew Beynon]

That's a good question, because there are first nations operating under the FNLM regime that are experiencing that very issue right now. When a first nation operates under the FNLM regime, there is a very clear demarcation of the reserve lands to which the FNLM regime will apply. Where there is an agreement to add lands to a reserve, we have to go through a subsequent step to decide with the community whether they want the FNLM legislation to apply to that reserve land as well.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I have a subsequent question. This is a problem I'm experiencing in northwestern Ontario, and I suppose Mr. Rickford probably is as well in his part of Canada, as is perhaps the rest of Canada.

I advised the witnesses who were here on Tuesday that I'd be asking this question, and I asked them to brief the new witnesses coming in on this one. I think it's a straightforward question, but no one seems to know the answer to it.

Let us say, for example, that Rainy River First Nation purchases a strip mall in Fort Frances. Over the course of the next number of years, as it becomes attached to a reserve, the municipality will no longer be receiving tax money on that land. Who is responsible for making sure the municipality receives compensation for that property tax that is now lost?

[Andrew Beynon]

I really wish I could give you a nice snapshot answer.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Oh, I was hoping it would be like, “oh, the province is responsible”, for example.

[Andrew Beynon]

I like to give very clear answers. This is an important question that we should follow up on in writing, because there is some complexity to it.

I have to give you this answer. There are different regimes, under which settlements are entered into across the country, that yield these additions to reserve. Different settlements may dictate different outcomes for municipal tax loss compensation. Those in Saskatchewan are different from those in Manitoba, for example. The circumstances vary.

My attempt at a short answer would be to say that in the processes, when lands are identified for potential addition to reserve, to expand for population or economic purposes or for settlement of claims, there are different processes that are built in for consultation with the municipalities, and efforts are made to come to an agreement.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

If I may interrupt, northern Ontario municipalities are very large and not very well funded. In this particular case, or in some other cases of adjacent lands—farmlands, for example—being bought up, each time a block of land disappears, it disappears from the tax base of a larger municipality. It might not be a mall, for economic reasons; it might just be an increase in the reserve land size, but somebody has to be on the hook for those municipalities. I know, for example, that the municipalities in question, Emo and Fort Frances, were never consulted.

[Andrew Beynon]

The one comment I would offer to that is that while efforts are made to negotiate with municipalities, it is fair to say you would probably hear that concern about potential long-term loss of tax revenues from a lot of municipal organizations.

I would suggest, though, that sometimes when first nations are working with neighbouring municipalities, they get into the issue of what economic development would take place if the land became reserve land. If there are appropriate servicing agreements and potential expansion of local revenues, those can be factors that sometimes cause neighbouring municipalities to say they will support the proposed addition to a reserve.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Is there one person whom municipalities can write to about these issues? In other words, when I'm approached, can I give people a person to call?

[Andrew Beynon]

I think that's probably best handled by addressing the inquiry to the Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development or to the minister. It will go through the appropriate channels, whether it pertains to a region or to those who are negotiating an active claim. There's also a division in our lands and environment branch that is responsible for additions to reserve.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Can you follow up and get an answer on that one?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Is there an information package that can go to first nations, a set information package if first nations inquire?