Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 20th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

If any of you wants to jump in on this, I think it's directed to anybody, or to none of the above.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

It just jumped out at me as quite a difference in expenditures.

[Chief Robert Louie]

Thank you, Mr. Rafferty, for your question.

I used the term “new relationships” in my presentation. The new relationships, I believe, are very real. Relationships to me, in the understanding we have as first nations who are exercising land management authorities and jurisdiction, are something that builds upon our relationships with governments and municipalities. We're now able to sit at forums and speak as a governmental body. When our flags are flying on the flagpoles and people see that and look at the offices we represent, they see a governmental body. That's important when we're dealing with relationships with municipalities, when we're sitting at negotiating tables on such matters as land claims, education, and other matters with governments provincial or federal.

This builds upon that relationship. It's very fundamental to have it recognized in this new relationship. I know that it has sometimes been a loose term, used sometimes more loosely than perhaps it could or should be. Our relationships are genuine and they're real. They are something that we build upon.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Would you characterize the situation as that over the years things are getting better, that year by year there's a better understanding from others about what you do and the relationships that you build as years go on?

[Philip Goulais, Director, First Nations Land Advisory Board]

Thank you.

I want to say aaniin, hello to everyone. Thank you, Mr. Chairperson and honourable members, for providing us with this opportunity today. I want to say meegwetch for that. Thank you. And meegwetch to our leaders for joining us and supporting us today, and being here in the room with us.

I live in the North Bay area. I'm from the Nipissing First Nation on the north shore of Lake Nipissing. I have my chief with me here today.

We have some success stories. There are many success stories across this country about our first nations and our land management communities, but I'll speak about the one I know best. I know time is at a premium, so I'll be as quick as I can on the response.

To answer your question directly, our local communities came forward and supported the land management initiative. They came to committees and gave evidence years ago. I remember a mayor from the small community of Sturgeon Falls said it was 30 years overdue, and first nations should have been managing their lands for some time.

The mayor of North Bay at the time said, in terms of economic development, that every time the first nations community generated employment and revenue, the municipalities benefited immediately within 24 hours. As a matter of fact, at that time the majority of the funds that were generated were spent within the municipality.

The relationships continue to grow in a good way. If you look back at when first nations like ours were trying to attract business, in 1989, when I first met Chief Louie and my colleagues, we had lost 16 opportunities for development, because it took us about two years to formalize a relationship with a developer. Fast-forwarding to where we are today, we have business deals that are done within hours over a meeting. We can agree in principle on where we're going. Within the month we can formalize the final instruments to move forward with.

One of the examples I can use is the Miller paving group that came to us years ago. Their lawyer mentioned to the owners of the company that they were recommending Nipissing as a community to partner with in the aggregates, waste management, and other businesses they do across Canada, and particularly in our area in Ontario, because we were a land management community. There were provisions in the framework agreement and the land management act that provided protection for the developers. So they were quick to partner with us, and it's been a good relationship--along with other businesses that have come forward.

If you look back to 1990, in our community industrial and commercial leasing generated about 25 jobs and a modest payroll. If you look at the study we did in 2010, there are now about 46 businesses, about 380 jobs, and a payroll of around $14.5 million. So these are funds that have been generated. Of those employees, one third are first nation, one third are first nation members from other communities, and one third are non-natives.

Getting back to your question, the funds are spent within our communities and support the local economies of the municipalities that are good neighbours to us.

Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you so much for that.

Mr. Clark, you have five minutes.

[Chief Robert Louie]

I wish to comment on your trip to Westbank and the growth. I was first elected as a councillor in 1974. It was my first experience in the political realm. We operated out of a 28-foot trailer, no more than eight feet wide. We had enough money to have one secretary. Nothing else was paid, not our chief, not our councillors. We had to share the space and everything else. We've grown to what we are today, and now we have an investment of $1.2 billion in assessed property values. We have all the shopping centres and everything else that's developed. That's since 1974. I wanted that opportunity to explain to you the growth and the potential that's there.

I'll comment on the one out of six in negotiations. We have one out of six that have interest. They want to be part of what we're talking about and that opportunity is not there yet. So they're not actually in negotiations. They're at the doorstep asking to be let in. That's where we are right now.

The need is great, demand is great, and we have an opportunity. I stress to you honourable members that if you could help the government give us more support, the benefits will far outweigh the investment.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I have a short question, but it may require a long answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

We can move on. If we get done with the speaking list, I have a question.

Yes, Vice-Chief Jody Wilson-Raybould?

[Vice-Chief Jody Wilson-Raybould]

Maybe I could build on what Chief Louie was talking about and address some of the questions.

Talking about people wanting to be perfect in the process, perfection is an ideal I strive for and I think everybody still strives for, and it's difficult to achieve. There's no simple process for rebuilding our nations and rebuilding governance. What first nations are looking for is not necessarily drawn-out negotiations. We are looking for support in rebuilding our governance. The laws and legal framework are in place for you, as parliamentarians, and for Canada. But these institutions are not in place right now, for the most part, in our first nations communities.

There is the question of how you, as parliamentarians, can move out of the way, supportively, of our first nations. We're seeking locally driven, nation-based communities with decision-making powers and jurisdiction over our lands, our education, our water, and our governance. How can we, in partnership, work with you parliamentarians to ensure that we are supportive of one another? How can we work together in our local communities? In looking at legislative reform, we want to ensure that when first nations are ready, willing, and able to move beyond the Indian Act, as we're doing in land management, the Government of Canada will step away and allow communities to do what they need to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

It sounds very much like an exercise I'm part of in the red tape reduction committee for entrepreneurs. What we need is a red tape reduction committee. Maybe that's something our committee can undertake in working with folks out there who want to move forward.

Ms. Duncan.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for suggesting that. The Auditor General recommended that in her last report.

I specifically wanted to speak to Vice-Chief Wilson-Raybould. I really like the comment that you added a little while back--and you continue to expand on it--about it not being about control of your lands and resources, it's about self-government. When we met earlier with the board, they were very clear about this. It's one of the steps towards self-governance.

I have two questions. It's great to hear success stories, and some of them sound phenomenal. Everything from developing renewable energy fed into the grid, to other businesses. It's fantastic. Every municipality in the country would like to move in the direction some of you are moving in. And you're good examples.

My concern is with those who aren't on board. Again, I look at the map, and only one first nation in Alberta is even vaguely interested. I would like to delve into it, but we don't have time to do it here. When we go into this review, as you're well aware, if any first nation communities are dealing with the impacts of resource development they're not benefiting from, it's Alberta, so it's peculiar to me that they're not first to the plate. There have to be some serious reasons here that they're not stepping forward.

The other question is, when you're generating this income, it would be nice if we have the bigger dialogue about pursuing who is actually doing the development and who's benefiting. Is the money going into the coffers of the first nation and in turn going into housing and schooling? Or is it going to individual first nations and their partners?

It's a big question, but if you could even briefly respond, I'd appreciate it.

[Vice-Chief Jody Wilson-Raybould]

I'll look to my colleagues here to contribute. I appreciate the question, and I really think that in terms of self-government or moving towards self-government, this is the hot topic of our time. It's not that it's just a topic today. First-nations-led initiatives have been leading up to the point of where we are today and the opportunities that we have, both legally at the negotiation table and actually exercising our rights on the ground in our communities and determining for ourselves how we want to govern in making decisions at a local level. So if there's anything this committee could look at and study, it's overall governance and how we assist first nations in doing that as parliamentarians. How can we move away from the Indian Act in a way that is supportive of our local priorities?

For those first nations that aren't on board right now, I think one of the most powerful things for the land management initiative and other initiatives that are first-nations-led is to set examples or provide options for our first nations when they're ready, when their community has determined that this is a priority, so that they have the ability to move forward and nobody stands in the way of that community doing that. For those communities that aren't on board right now, by seeing what other communities are doing and seeing that those opportunities are available, that the door isn't closed when they're ready to do it, that it's open and the resources are there and provided to these communities in order to do so....

Moving away from the Indian Act has been a discussion as of late in the last couple of years. It's a priority of the national chief and it's a priority of the Assembly of First Nations. Most importantly, it's a priority that communities are looking at on the ground and they are moving away in varying ways. So how can we be supportive of that? How can we be supportive of our first nations developing their core institutions, their constitution, determining for themselves who their citizens are, and determining the rules and the laws over which and how their governing body makes decisions? That's fundamental governance, and that's how we can assist other nations in doing that and in making those opportunities available to ensure that our communities benefit from decisions that are being made in their territories. More important is that they have a role to play and have become partners in those decisions.

[Chief Robert Louie]

Mr. Chairman, if I may, I know this is a very important question: who is doing actual development and who is benefiting? If you'd allow us each to respond, I think it's very significant and helps explain why it's so important.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Yes, we're constrained with time, but absolutely, I think it's important to be on the record.

So please, Mr. Goulais....

[Philip Goulais]

Mr. Chairman, thank you, meegwetch.

There are two points I want to make. The first is that what we've generated within our communities is the in-migration of what was at one time the out-migration of our youth. Our professional people are returning home. In our community, Dr. Beaucage has set up office within the community. The majority of our businesses now are owned by first nations. Some of them are partnered with other developers as well. Chief Marianna Couchie at Nipissing is engaged now in building a small-business centre that will host the first nations technical institute as well as other professional businesses and developers.

So in answer to the question, many of our community members are benefiting, as well as our neighbours and our colleagues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

Chief Bear.

[Chief Austin Bear, Chair, Finance Committee and Resource Centre Board of Directors, First Nations Land Advisory Board]

Thank you, Mr. Chairperson, and thank you to the honourable members of this committee. I'll be as brief as possible.

On the question of what the actual developments are and who is benefiting, certainly across the land the first nations are developing. We're developing and creating not just opportunities that are presented, but sometimes we have to seek these opportunities, we have to create opportunities. In my case, in the Muskoday First Nation, we are creating opportunities with our neighbours, the city, the municipality, and other partners that reach beyond our local area through our region and beyond our region into other provinces, like Manitoba.

Who is benefiting? Our members are benefiting. They benefit not only from creating employment and business opportunities for our members who are situated on—I'll have to excuse myself for this language—our reserve lands, but also for our members who live away. In our community we generate programs and services from our efforts and our resources--for our elders, for our children, for our families, for our community--that would not otherwise exist. That is, in my opinion, the definition of and the benefits from a self-governing nation, where the elders are cared for, the children are looked after, the families' needs are met, and the community's needs are met. That is self-government, and that is fulfilling our obligations.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much.

I have begged and received consent from my colleague to steal his last five minutes, because I have some questions.

I should just put on the record that I'm proud to be the MP for 32 first nation communities. There are many who are inspired by the stories that you have brought forward, the inspiration that you demonstrate to them. So when we talk about Alberta communities that maybe aren't on board completely yet, let me be sure to let you know that there are people throughout the 32 communities that I have the opportunity to represent in northwest Alberta who are looking to you as inspiration and looking forward to opportunities to move forward in many of the same ways that you have.

Chief Louie, we had an opportunity to tour your community, and I was struck by the illustration when you showed me the difference in and the difficulty of bringing forward economic development under the Indian Act, compared to under the land code. Could you explain to us the frustration? Was it the Royal Bank that you were attempting to have built there?

Just illustrate the difference, and the complexity of that, and what is able to be done now by the community within your own authority.

[Chief Robert Louie]

I'd be honoured to answer that question, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much.

The example I gave you at our meeting in my community of Westbank was this. In the early 1990s we had a construction company called WIBCO Construction and we built it up to $20 million worth of bonding. We were doing all kinds of institution building, we built banks, and we did a number of things. One of the opportunities we had was to build a facility for the Royal Bank. In so doing, it was timely. The Royal Bank wanted to locate the first bank on our reserve lands and we found a spot for them and so forth.

At that time we were under the Indian Act, and under the act we ran into issues with the Department of Indian Affairs, and the Department of Justice in particular. We had the leasehold interest that we had to register in Ottawa's Indian Lands Registry. In putting that lease together to provide for this bank, we became frustrated. It probably cost us about $200,000 in legal fees because our legal counsel was arguing with the Department of Justice people and we simply were being held back.

It came to the point where we as a community decided we had to go ahead and build the bank because it was taking too long. We were literally putting the vaults into the facility when we actually got the final approval from the Department of Justice. Lo and behold, it was exactly what we started with and exactly the terms we started with. Things got complicated, and we spent all that time and energy fighting with the Department of Justice because of issues they brought up. They were the decision-makers.

So that was the level of frustration we had. I think it's a prime example of why we cannot operate effectively under the Indian Act and why first nations in this country cannot operate effectively. They need that authority to move things forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

That's a perfect demonstration of why it's important that we as a committee look at that, because if committee members were able to see what I saw, that is now just one of many businesses that have come in since then.

Colleagues, I know you have to leave.

If I could just ask you, Chief, what is the importance of members having the authority to leverage property in order to build up businesses within the community? What impact has that had? Could you give us a short anecdote about the difference that has developed in terms of the ability for people to go and borrow money from the bank under the land code, as opposed to how it used to be? I'm referring to individual entrepreneurs within the community.

[Chief Robert Louie]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That's a very important question. I'm glad you raised it.

Using my community as an example, what we have right now with land codes is the opportunity to build things. We are now involved in things like building shopping centres. In answer to Ms. Duncan's question about what we are actually doing in development and what sorts of benefits there are, we're the ones actually doing the developing. We have joint venture partners. Right now we have a 40% interest in one shopping centre and a 50% interest in another. We're benefiting as a community. We're the actual developers and decision-makers and we've got partners.

What is important with financing is that the banks, the institutions across this country, are looking at first nations with land codes and seeing that if you have a governance structure in place, if you have rules and regulations that protect investors and protect investments, there's more security and more comfort. What's happening across the country is an opportunity to enhance financing. You can't build things without money. It takes financing in most instances, not only banks, but also investors, and you need confidence for that.

We're doing something at Westbank that is, I think, somewhat revolutionary. In the next few months, the news will probably come before you that we're looking at a private medical facility. It's a jurisdiction we're going to be exercising in our reserve lands. The jobs are going to be close to 360 to 400 in the first days alone. It's revolutionary because we're looking at providing health services. Operations and so forth will actually take place there instead of moneys going out of the country to the United States or elsewhere in the world. Financing—having the confidence to raise $120 million, the cost to put this together—is extremely important. We're sitting down with the banks and investors. They're coming to the table because we have the jurisdiction and they have the comfort of knowing our laws are solid. They're there and are supportive of that investment. That's the opportunity that's provided.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you so much. And committee members, I thank you for allowing me the chair's prerogative in asking a few questions.

Thank you so much for coming, and again my apologies for showing up late.

I thank committee members for staying a few minutes past the deadline. Thanks so much.

The meeting is adjourned.