Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 23rd, 2013

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Paul.

Do I have time?

I want to turn to Mr. Howsam and Mr. Hoppe. You pointed out some of the challenges in Ontario. It's a very different kind of situation and we have many smaller communities that have independent water systems.

What is the biggest stumbling block to being able to deliver safe drinking water?

[Robert Howsam]

I don't think there's one single one. There are two realities: the human factor, in terms of skilled operators licensed to the level of the plant and their maintaining those skills; the other is the capital side, the plant. With the source water, you find a way of dealing with it, but it's really the resourcing issue in terms of operations maintenance and new capital, and then the human side of the equation.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

With regard to the circuit rider program, which is being touted as the be all and end all, my understanding is that it's great to get the operators trained, but there have been challenges with keeping them in their communities. Ms. Bennett has pointed out that some people aren't able to pass the written test. Can you speak to what else has to happen with the human resource component?

[Robert Howsam]

It's as complex as any staffing issue any company would face. You need to be able to pay people appropriately; certainly, that's part of it. There are big geographic challenges with getting people out for training, etc. If you're in a fly-in community, it's probably going to cost you $2,000 to get to Balmertown, Ontario, to take a week-long course. And, by the way, while you're gone, who's there to run the plant?

Those are some of the challenges.

I don't want to minimize some of the strides that have been made. When Walkerton happened, I believe there were nine operators licensed to the level of their plant in first nations in Ontario. That number is now well over 100, and some first nations run very sophisticated plants. They have the same financial challenges as others. There's a lot that's been achieved over the years, but there's a lot left to do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much.

We'll turn to Mr. Seeback now for the next seven minutes.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks for your testimony today.

John, you mentioned that you've been at this for six years. I know that you and APC were involved in some of the amendments that we see in this revised legislation, so I just wanted to say thanks for your work on that.

One of the things we talk a lot about on this committee is the following. Some people believe this legislation should solve all problems, which I don't think is possible. That's my personal view. I'm a big fan of trying to tackle the things you can, and then moving forward. How does this set up? My understanding or view is that what we're going to do with this is.... It's enabling legislation, first of all. What it will do is to enable the government to go forward and put together some regulations with respect to drinking water and waste water. Then you go forward and consult and work with first nations to determine what those regulations are going to be. And then once you now what those regulations are going to be, you're able to determine what the cost of that is going to be and, therefore, what kind of funding you're going to need to meet those obligations.

Presuming that's exactly how this goes, do you agree that's the right approach, and if so, why?

[John Paul]

From my perspective, the big thing we need to own is the solution at the end of the day, as my colleagues were talking about. We need to own whatever regulations come out of this, and we need to believe that they're workable and to figure out exactly what we need to do on the human resources side, the governance, and all of those different things.

Over the last couple of years, there have been issues of trust with the government, very serious issues. I believe that the work we're doing helps build unquestionable evidence of what we need to do. I think that in terms of the regulatory regime, we've worked closely. We've worked closely with our operators in the communities as well as our leadership in the communities to look at the rules we're trying to benchmark and to come up with and to make sure they work. What's the sense of creating a regime that you basically can't do anything with?

We've looked very seriously not only at the kinds of core capacities of the operators but also at what other levels of support and capacity need to be put in place to ensure that it operates as a whole system, from the time we cost out building a facility, build it, manage it, and operate it for 25 to 30 years. We believe that we need to build evidence on all that stuff and really figure out multiple strategies on all of those issues to make sure that the workers we do have will stick it out.

I understand that we have the same challenges: people get qualified as a level 3 or level 4 operator and then want to go to work out west. I should point out that in dealing with our water operators in Atlantic Canada, I saw that they are community people—all of them. It's home, so they want to make sure that whatever they're doing protects their people in the community. Because of that, a lot of them will continue to stick with it. In spite of the toughness, or lack of salaries, or whatever's going on, they've stuck it out all this time, to date.

A lot of them there today, we've increased the number of people who are certified and trained. We have circuit rider trainees, CRTs, supporting the communities in a good way. I think that at the end of the day, we want what everybody else wants: safe drinking water for all our people in every one of our communities. It's simple.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

If I'm to distill what you've said. What you're saying is that if this legislation is passed, the next critical step is going to be very close collaboration with organizations such as yours on the development of these regulations, so that we know they'll work and that we're going to be able to determine what the funding is going to be for those. I take it that you see that as the next critical step.

[John Paul]

I think it's very critical. You can't figure out in a vacuum what some of these things are going to cost; you can't cost it out. It's like trying to build a space program, right?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Sure.

[John Paul]

You start out with a vision of what it is, but essentially and fundamentally we do have to be part of the process in detailing those regulations. Look at it from the reality of our communities and include our communities.

At the end of the day, I've always seen water as something so fundamentally sacred in our communities that we need to own it. If you create whatever and people don't understand what it’s about, then how are you going to make children, or elders, or mothers, or somebody in the community understand that you're doing these things to protect their safety in the community?

The inclusion of our first nations in the process is fundamentally important. It's critical—that's all I can say.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Am I...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

You're pretty well out of time.

We will turn to Ms. Bennett now for the next seven minutes.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you very much.

Again, because this bill is going through this committee so quickly, it's very urgent that we hear from you if there are things you think we need to fix before it's passed. I'm hearing some concerns, including those that there be assurance of a close relationship as the regulations are developed.

If this bill were passed as is, is there anything you would suggest to the government that it actually needs to fix before there are unintended consequences?

[Chief Dean Vicaire]

I can speak to that.

Mr. Seeback asked a great question, and I think there was an even better response regarding what will be required. Taking ownership is key. Ultimately when you have that ownership, confidence comes along with it. With that confidence come the abilities to lead, to move forward, and to strive to become a model for other first nations across this country from coast to coast to coast. When we first set out on this process way back when, the goal and the vision were always to become a leader, to become a model that other first nations across this country could follow. This is not something we're just reacting to. It's not something we haven't put a lot of thought and a lot of expertise into. We've put a lot of time, money, and effort into this.

I think the goal, ultimately, if and when this comes down the tubes, is to give and allow the opportunity for first nations not only to have that valued input but, ultimately, to take the lead and become a model for others to follow.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

But that also requires some resources to come with it for training and for infrastructure.

[Chief Dean Vicaire]

Absolutely. That's been said here all morning, right? There's no need for me to repeat that. It's quite clear: we need human resources and money.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

In the presentation from Metro Vancouver, they were outlining, I think, something that hadn't really been considered in this bill: places where the jurisdictions overlap and the fact that there's a partnership between a first nation and a local neighbouring community. As my colleague pointed out, that's not articulated in this bill at all. Either in Atlantic Canada or in Ontario, do you have some experience with that?

[Robert Howsam]

There are some, what we call, municipal type agreements in Ontario around fire protection and water, and waste water in some cases. A number of them are very successful and are long term. To be frank, some of them are challenged in that the relationships between the municipality and the first nation are tested or challenged on maybe unrelated issues, and the water pipe is used as a threat. I don't think it's ever actually been turned off.

MTAs are a valid vehicle where they work. Frankly we'd like to see a reverse type of MTA, whereby a first nation can sell water or fire protection services to a neighbouring municipality. In fact, there is an example in Ontario—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

We've heard that Christian Island is not allowed to sell the water to the cottagers. It's ridiculous.

[Robert Howsam]

Exactly, yes.

[John Paul]

They do it in Rama, too.

[Robert Howsam]

Rama sells its education to Orillia.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

In Atlantic Canada do you have the same?

[John Paul]

We have the same thing. We have a number of MTAs. The issue is about relationships with your fellow governments in the area. The only issue I would comment on about MTAs is that they're vague. They're not constructed in a way that I would think will ensure—