Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 6th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I call this meeting to order.

This is the 13th meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. Today we continue our study and are moving into the clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-15.

We are joined by departmental officials.

Thank you for joining us and for answering our questions in our last meeting. We look forward to your assistance today. Thank you so much for being here.

We're going to move into the clause-by-clause consideration of the bill. As you know, consideration of the short title is postponed, pursuant to Standing Order 75(1), so we will move into consideration of amendments.

(On clause 2—Enactment)

We will start with amendment NDP-1, which I believe proposes an amendment to clause 2.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I would move that clause 2 of Bill C-15 be amended by adding after line 35 on page 5 the following:

(4) The Commissioner must, as soon as possible after receiving written instructions, make them available to the Executive Council of the Northwest Territories and cause them to be laid before the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories, but the written instructions are effective when they are made.

This amendment makes instructions given to the Commissioner of the Northwest Territories from the Governor in Council of Canada public. This clause is similar to subsection 6(2) of the Nunavut Act.

A further amendment, NDP-4, would delete this clause 10 years after coming into force because we would be looking at those instructions being similar to the Yukon.

Basically the purpose is to ensure that the thinking behind the Northwest Territories Act is similar to what took place for other territories. I could say that if the Government of Canada doesn't give instructions to the commissioner, that would mean those instructions would not be public. In the case that they are, I think it's incumbent upon a government-to-government relationship that the person who represents the role of lieutenant governor to the greatest degree in a provincial type of setting should have some responsibility to the Government of the Northwest Territories in terms of information. It's a step down from the provinces, of course. We recognize that it will remain without the full weight of a lieutenant governor for some time yet.

Still everything possible should be done to give the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories equality with other legislative assemblies in Canada. The purpose of devolution—or if you look at it the other way, evolution—is to ensure that the people of the Northwest Territories have political rights that are as similar as possible to those of other people in this country. That is the operating principle here.

I think the government has indicated that's what it wants to do. The Nunavut Act of course was put forward by the Liberal government, and that is a historical fact. It doesn't mean we can't look for improvements to what is going on with this act.

I think this amendment respects the direction the government is taking. It may have been an oversight on its part not to include it, but I would ask that this amendment be considered.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

I just want to make members aware that if this is passed, it will also apply to amendment NDP-4. So if it is passed, they would both apply, and if it is defeated, both would be defeated.

Mr. Strahl, we'll turn to you.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

It may surprise Mr. Bevington, but I happen to agree with him. We'll be happy to accept this amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

I'm not seeing any additional speakers. Let's go to a vote. Again, it applies to NDP-4 as well.

All those in favour of NDP-1 and, by extension, NDP-4?

(Amendment agreed to)

I believe Mr. Bevington would like to move amendment NDP-2.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Amendment NDP-2 is speaking to page 14, line 1, and asks that Bill C-15, in clause 2, be amended by replacing line 1 on page 14 with the following:

(5) The Governor in Council may, after consultation with the Government of the Northwest Territories and on the

That speaks to the requirement that the federal government, before making regulations governing the borrowing powers of the Northwest Territories government, would have to consult formally with the Government of the Northwest Territories before making any changes to the rules and regulations that surround one of the most important aspects of any government's portfolio, that is, the fiscal ability of the Government of the Northwest Territories.

The absolute primary function of government is to be able to invest and to make good use of funds for the people it represents. The Government of the Northwest Territories, being a very responsible government that has a double-A credit rating from Moody's, has a better credit rating than many provinces.

We've gone through this debate a number of times in Parliament. There was a lot of support in Parliament for more borrowing powers for the Government of the Northwest Territories, yet within the bill, of course, this still remains the purview of the federal cabinet. It's important to note that it's not simply the dollar amount of the borrowing limit for the Government of the Northwest Territories, although that is very important. It's the type of consideration that's given to borrowing.

For instance, if self-financed loans are put into the borrowing limit for the Government of the Northwest Territories, that tremendously limits the ability of government to invest in the types of things that every other government in Canada has invested in over the course of our Confederation. When the Government of the Northwest Territories wants to invest in utilities to build hydroelectric facilities or transmission lines, those with this power that the federal government has to set the terms and conditions of borrowing could drastically impact on its ability to actually do that, even though the types of loans it would be making would be self-financed and would not be a burden to the taxpayers.

These are important considerations. Once again, this amendment is something to assure the Government of the Northwest Territories that it will be involved in any of those deliberations by the federal cabinet over the powers it has in borrowing. I think it's a very important amendment as well. It may well never be used, but it clearly delineates to everyone that the Government of the Northwest Territories has to be involved in these types of decisions.

I would encourage all members to support this, as they have supported the previous amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Genest-Jourdain.

[Jonathan Genest-Jourdain, NDP, Manicouagan, QC]

To my mind, the amendment, as it currently stands, speaks to the multi-stakeholder dimension that is paramount to the type of agreement and procedures we're discussing. At the very least, the amendment before us would make it possible to overcome certain challenges around the balance of negotiating power. It would also address the possible use of unconscionable power, given that governments usually have much broader enforcement measures at their disposal than do private, provincial or regional parties.

My point of view is this. In its current form, the amendment would reflect that inclusive dimension and address concerns around the balance of negotiating power.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

Not having any additional speakers on amendment NDP-2, we'll go to a vote.

(Amendment negatived)

We are on amendment NDP-3.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Amendment NDP-3 proposes that Bill C-15, in clause 2, be amended by deleting lines 13 to 22 on page 14. The amendment deletes the following:

(1) The Governor in Council may, in writing, direct the Commissioner to withhold his or her assent to a bill that has been introduced in the Legislative Assembly.

It also takes out the following:

(2) A bill in respect of which a direction is given must not become law without the Governor in Council’s assent, which is not to be given later than one year after the day on which the bill is adopted by the Legislative Assembly.

I think it's clear that this gives extraordinary power to the federal cabinet, power similar to that enjoyed by the Queen. If the object of devolution is to give the NWT more power over its own affairs, this section is contrary to that objective. The Yukon Act is similar, though the Nunavut Act is not, interestingly enough. These particular clauses haven't been standard in the treatment of territories. They are put in here quite clearly so that the Government of Canada will retain rights and privileges over the laws that are passed in any legislative assembly in Canada, and I think this amendment would put the Government of the Northwest Territories more in line with those of the provinces.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

There not being any more debate on these additional—

Oh, I do see Mr. Hyer.

Mr. Hyer, you know you're not a member of this committee, and therefore you will speak to your amendments. This particular amendment—

[Bruce Hyer, Green, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

My amendment is identical to this amendment. It seems like a logical time to squeeze it in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

We are considering at this point amendment NDP-3.

Not seeing any additional speakers to that, we will go to a vote. I should note that amendment NDP-3 will have an effect on amendments PV-2 and PV-2a. If it is defeated, so will those two be; and if it's adopted, then PV-2 and PV-2a will not be able to be put.

We will go to a vote on amendment NDP-3.

Ms. Hughes, before we go to a vote, go ahead, please.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I'm just wondering if I could have the department's view on this particular amendment that was passed as to whether it would be problematic to have that amendment in the bill. Is this not in order?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

As you referenced, it hasn't been passed. Do you have a particular technical question to ask?

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

My colleague just spoke on this, and I'm wondering if the amendment would actually hamper the bill in any way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Is there anybody who would look to...?

I'm not sure there's any specific question in that, but I think we may get an answer that will satisfy you, Ms. Hughes.

[Tom Isaac, Senior Counsel, Negotiations, Northern Affairs and Federal Interlocutor, Department of Justice]

It's our view that this particular amendment wouldn't hamper the operation of the bill in a technical sense. This particular provision was to gain some uniformity with the way provincial legislatures as well as the legislature of Yukon and the legislature of Nunavut are treated with regard to laws. This was put in the bill for reasons of consistency.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

All those in favour of amendment NDP-3?

(Amendment negatived)

That completes the amendments on clause 2.

Shall clause 2 as amended carry?

(Clause 2 as amended agreed to)

(Clauses 3 through 7 agreed to)

(On clause 8)

NDP-5 is a proposed amendment to clause 8.

Is someone seeking to move amendment NDP-5 on clause 8?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Yes. I move that Bill C-15, in clause 8, be amended by replacing line 24 on page 34 with the following: “Northwest Territories: consisting of the North-”.

This amendment changes the name of the riding from “Western Arctic” to the “Northwest Territories”, which makes it consistent with the names of the other two territorial ridings. In 2007 I polled my constituents on this particular issue and found that there was great support for this. In other polls that were done on the naming of the Northwest Territories, the overwhelming choice of people in the north was to retain the name “Northwest Territories”.

The name “Northwest Territories” has historical significance for I think almost everyone in Canada. Northwest Territories was the designation for most of Canada for a long period of time. It's a name that deserves respect. The existing designation in the House of Commons does not give respect to the name “Northwest Territories”. It does not suit the region that I represent, because of course 90% of the region that I'm in is in the subarctic boreal forest.

It's simply not correct to continue this. I've tried for many years to get this done. Here's an opportunity where we can all work together to get this done very simply in this bill, and I would ask that the committee find support to do this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Strahl.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is certainly not something that we heard from any of the witnesses who appeared before the committee, that this was something they were looking for.... We've all had an opportunity as members of Parliament to make presentations to the electoral boundaries commissions over the last couple of years, so I think this is external to the purpose of the bill. Certainly, there are ways to make that amendment. I would encourage Mr. Bevington to avail himself of those, but it's not appropriate to make that amendment in this particular bill.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Well, I just want to point out that through the process of time we've tried many ways to get this name changed. Actually, in the boundaries commission there is no opportunity to change the name, because the three names of the northern ridings are held in a different part of the act that governs the names and the districts in Canada, so it's simply not going to be changed under the boundaries commission. That's the reality of it. There was no opportunity to do that.

If the government would give some indication that it has other plans to change the name, that might be one thing that I'd love to hear from them here. But this is simple. This will do it. This will do the job. What would be anyone's disagreement with this particular change?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you.

I'm not seeing any additional speakers, so we'll go to a vote on amendment NDP-5.

(Amendment negatived)

Shall clause 8 carry unamended?

(Clause 8 agreed to)

(Clauses 9 to 111 inclusive agreed to)

(On clause 112)

On clause 112, we have two proposed amendments. There is an amendment that has been deemed put, and it is PV-5a.

Mr. Hyer, would you like to give a short introduction to that amendment?