Evidence of meeting #2 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dean Vicaire  Executive Co-Chair, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs
John Paul  Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs
Ron Evans  Chief, Norway House Cree Nation
Donovan Fontaine  Sagkeeng First Nation

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Order please.

Colleagues, this is the second meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development.

Today we continue our work and we'll be hearing from the minister with regard to our study of Bill C-9, An Act respecting the election and term of office of chiefs and councillors of certain First Nations and the composition of council of those First Nations.

As is our custom in this committee, we'll turn the meeting over to the minister for about 10 minutes, then we'll have some rounds of questioning.

Minister, thank you so much for being here. We appreciate you coming.

Colleagues, as for the second hour, we do have people here to testify in the second hour and then we have one housekeeping motion that needs to be dealt with. We'll deal with that at the very end of the meeting today.

Minister, we turn it over to you now.

11 a.m.

Madawaska—Restigouche New Brunswick

Conservative

Bernard Valcourt ConservativeMinister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Members of the committee, I am very pleased to be here today to address Bill C-9, the first nations elections act.

As you all know, our government has been working closely with first nations to bring about real improvement to the election process for first nations and this has been going on for over five years. Indeed, this legislative proposal has been largely driven and led by first nations, in particular the Atlantic Policy Congress and the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs under the then leadership of Grand Chief Ron Evans.

These two organizations first came to our government in 2008 when they told us their views about the current Indian Act elections system which, in their view, was simply not working for them. They said they would rather have another option to the current Indian Act election system.

It is their efforts over the past five years that have led to the development of the proposed first nations elections act that is before you today in the form of Bill C-9. Both organizations first engaged in their own regions of the country, then subsequently with first nations organizations and leaders in other provinces to develop recommendations for a better election system than the one operating within the Indian Act. It was these recommendations that formed the basis of the bill you see before you today.

Mr. Chair and member of the committee, I think it is time we passed this bill into law so that first nations can take advantage of the benefits it has to offer.

In fact, just recently, I received a letter from the Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs wherein they reiterated their strong support for the First Nations Elections Act and further stated that this bill would ... help reform elections by creating the political stability needed to effectively implement long-term community plans and build the confidence in governance that should result in increased economic opportunities and development for first nations who choose to opt in to the legislation.

I also received a letter from former Grand Chief of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, Ron Evans, who stated that ... when enacted, Bill C- 9 will change the way first nations are governed, create stability and credibility, strengthen self-governance and allow first nations to move forward.

As my colleagues are aware, there are currently three ways in which first nations select their leadership in Canada: 343 conduct elections under their own community or custom election codes; 238 conduct elections under the Indian Act; and 36 conduct elections under self-government agreement provisions.

And what we heard from first nations during these consultations is that transitioning to a community election code or to a self-government agreement is not a viable option for them, but that they wanted a strong, viable legislative alternative to the Indian Act.

That's exactly what this bill does. It provides first nations that so choose with another alternative that addresses the many weaknesses of the Indian Act election system. It is important to understand that no one is obligated to participate; first nations who want to adopt the election system under the legislation may do so.

I want to take a moment, Mr. Chair, to highlight some of the weaknesses in the Indian Act that the first nations elections act seeks to address.

First, the election terms under the current act are too short. The Indian Act requires that first nations communities hold elections every two years. Let's be realistic. Two years simply does not provide enough time for first nations leadership and council to plan for and implement long-term community development projects and take full advantage of emerging opportunities to improve the lives of the people in their communities. It really puts first nations in perpetual election mode and it has been expressed time and time again that changes are desperately needed to lengthen the election term.

The first nations elections act would provide for a term of office of four years and would also enable six or more first nations communities to line up their terms of office and hold elections on the same day, also referred to as “common election day”. This is something that the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs in particular had identified as the major impetus for calling for changes to the current Indian Act election system.

Second, rules are lacking regarding the nomination of candidates and mail-in ballots. For example, there are absolutely no eligibility requirements in order to be nominated for chief, and individuals can be nominated for both chief and councillor in the same election. This bill would provide clearer rules regarding eligibility for nominations and for the making of regulations that address many issues surrounding the nomination of candidates and mail-in ballot voting that commonly surface at elections held under the Indian Act. We are committed to developing these regulations in partnership with first nations.

This bill would provide for clearer rules regarding eligibility for nominations. It would also provide for the making of regulations that could address many of the issues surrounding the nomination of candidates and mail-in ballot voting that commonly surface with respect to elections held under the Indian Act.

Third, unlike the Canada Elections Act, the Indian Act does not set out any offences or penalties for election-related abuses. The Indian Act does allow for the removal of an elected official from office if they are guilty of engaging in a corrupt practice in relation to an election, but there is no fine or additional penalty such as imprisonment.

There is also absolutely no penalty for a non-elected official that engages in election-related abuses such as buying votes, using a forged ballot or obstructing the conduct of an election. This system allows for serious offences to go unpunished, which is an encouragement rather than a needed deterrent.

This bill would rectify this unacceptable legislative gap and provide for defined offences and penalties surrounding questionable and fraudulent activities, such as vote buying, using intimidation and obstructing the electoral process.

Fourth, election appeals under the Indian Act currently go to the minister, not the courts. This is paternalistic and frankly not a business I think that the minister should be in. This bill would remove the minister from the equation and ensure that appeals are dealt with by the courts as is the case for many other levels of government in Canada.

Mr. Chair, I am sure my honourable colleagues would join me in expressing our appreciation to these first nations leaders—some of whom I know you will be hearing from later today—for their important work on this bill. They saw the need to reform their election system and then took action to bring about practical changes. All the credit should go to them, and they deserve our support in passing this bill swiftly into law.

Thank you. I would be pleased to answer any questions committee members may have on this legislation.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you, Minister. We appreciate your coming this morning.

We'll turn it over now to Ms. Crowder for the first round of questions.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for coming before the committee today.

I just have a couple of points. You mentioned in your presentation that there are currently 238 first nations under the Indian Act, and you also indicated this is opt-in legislation.

Do you have an estimate of how much interest there is, how many first nations out of the 238 may be interested in moving into this new piece of legislation?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Valcourt Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I stand to be corrected, Ms. Crowder, but I don't believe we have done a survey to determine how many were interested in adopting the new election system. However, we trust that given the interest shown by all of those that were consulted by the first nations themselves, they feel there is quite a good number of them that will opt in and see the advantages of it.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

But they could remain under the current Indian Act system if they chose?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Valcourt Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Absolutely.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Towards the end of your presentation, you also mentioned appeals. I know the Senate study indicated it takes between six and eighteen months currently to hear appeals before the department.

Can you tell me approximately how many appeals the department would receive on an annual basis?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Valcourt Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

On average, if I look at the last 10 years, there are about 32 appeals filed per year from Indian Act election bands. Of those 32 appeals that annually take place, on average, only about three are referred to the minister per year.

Many of the election appeals are rejected by the department because the reasons put forward for the appeal either do not demonstrate violations of the election rules, or are frivolous, or were not submitted within the 45-day appeal period. When I say “frivolous” I should maybe qualify by saying there is not often the kind of evidence that can support the appeal. That's why so few are referred to the minister for his decision.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

So under the proposed legislation under clause 3, one aspect of that is for a nation to indicate that they want to be included, but there are also provisions in this legislation for the minister to order somebody under the new legislation.

Would that be either Indian Act bands or custom? Just custom?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Valcourt Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

No, just Indian Act bands.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Okay. That's not clear from this.

So what you're saying is—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Valcourt Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Yes, there was a protracted...no, you're right. Sorry.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

But it could be either Indian Act—first nations currently under the Indian Act legislation or custom code. Both could be referred to the new legislation.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Valcourt Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

If the minister was satisfied that there was indeed a protracted leadership dispute, in that case, yes, either an Indian or a custom band could be ordered to come under the act.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Does your department have a definition of what a protracted leadership dispute looks like? Or corrupt practice? Are there definitions?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Valcourt Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

No. There are no definitions per se in the act or in regulations. I think the view in the department and how it would be interpreted is that it is a situation when, because of a leadership dispute that can't seem to be resolved, the health and safety of the members of that community may be at risk.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

But it's still going to be at the minister's discretion.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Valcourt Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Yes, and you know, it is a power that is already, as you know, under the Indian Act.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

So it's not really an improvement.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Valcourt Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

It is an improvement in the sense that the minister will not force that band to go under the old Indian Act. It has to come under this new act with all of its strengths and transparency and accountability, which is lacking under the Indian Act system.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

I'm sure you're aware, Minister, that the sticking point here is in fact for many first nations they don't want that kind of ministerial discretion.

What has been suggested—and I'm wondering why the department didn't consider it—is an independent commission, an independent body, that would oversee disputes. That was recommended in the original JMAC report. It was recommended in the Senate report to remove that kind of ministerial oversight.

Why didn't they go to an independent commission?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Valcourt Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Because that was considered and there was consultation with first nations. There were a number of reasons why a commission was not considered. First, the role such a commission would play in electoral appeals is questionable, particularly given that the offence and penalty provisions of the bill provide that corrupt practices will be responded to and addressed by law enforcement, crown attorneys, and the courts.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Sorry, Minister, it's not just about corrupt practices. It's about where there may be disputes over the outcome. It may not be corruption. They may think the ballots weren't counted properly.

The rest of us have oversight with an independent body, with Elections Canada. I'm just wondering why first nations wouldn't have that same opportunity.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bernard Valcourt Conservative Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

If you look at other levels of government, at the municipal level...let's take Ontario or New Brunswick or any province for that matter. We don't have a commission for municipal elections. The court deals with any violations of the act, which is what is prescribed here.

Another consideration are the resources that would be required for the establishment of such a commission, which would be costly and add nothing in the sense that the court now would be tasked with deciding whether or not the act has been violated.