Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 19th, 2013

[Grand Chief Derek Nepinak]

Well, we did review the bill. We were invited to the Senate committee in 2012. We did provide recommendations similar in nature to the ones we've made today. We're aware that none of the friendly amendments we proposed were actually incorporated and were discussed very briefly.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Okay.

Apparently in the bill, part of it has found favour with the community and the chief and council. I refer to the four-year term and the common election day. Is that a fair assessment from what you folks have heard? People are saying that the four-year term makes sense rather than two years, the overall assessment of the candidates, the election call would be better if we did it this way or that way.

I ask the question in light of Elections Canada. We have a whole lot of different elections that happen from coast to coast to coast. The whole thing is governed by Elections Canada. Is there an opportunity in the first nations to have a similar operation that goes across Canada? Is that desirable or not desirable? Does the act allow that to happen? What are your thoughts on that?

[Grand Chief Craig Makinaw]

Based on every individual band's election system, whether it's a two-year Indian Act term, a three-year custom law, or a four-year term, it would have to be taken into consideration. At band level, I know that at Ermineskin we've talked about it a few times over the years, talking about four-year terms, but there have only been general discussions. It would have to be brought back to our own band levels to see what we decide. From there we'd know.

[Grand Chief Derek Nepinak]

If I may supplement that answer, I think that we have to at some point make a recognition that there are unique and diverse cultures of indigenous people, clear across Turtle Island, as we call North America now.

I think that the customs and traditions of unique indigenous communities need to be respected. In saying that, it's hard to justify the existence of a pan-aboriginal or a pan-Canadian approach to asserting legislation on indigenous people. There are organic processes that need to happen at the community level where decisions are made, whether or not there's going to be a local decision-making appeals tribunal or committee, or whether or not that should aggregate to a regional representation. I believe that to be an entirely organic process that has to be left to the community to decide.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

So you don't see a movement that would say we'll go with four-year terms and we'll run it like Elections Canada runs its elections? No? Maybe? Don't know yet; haven't asked the community?

[Grand Chief Derek Nepinak]

I think the four-year term issue is not something worth arguing over. I think that the Manitoba chiefs for a long time have said a four-year term would be preferential under the existing structure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

Thank you very much.

We'll turn to Ms. Hughes now for the next five minutes.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you very much.

As you said, I don't think it's the four-year term that's the big piece in this legislation. I think that there is much more.

You talked about the process that you went through and specifically how a question was posed to Aboriginal Affairs during this process about what they were actually going to do with the information, because it was specific to the Manitoba chiefs. I'm just wondering what the answer was. Did they say they were looking at doing legislation across the board? Was it, “This is the discussion that you had wanted us to have so we're having it”? I'm trying to get a sense of it because you did mention that in your answers a while ago.

[Grand Chief Derek Nepinak]

The record of the AMC process indicates that notwithstanding other Canadian jurisdictions, we wanted to identify a process that would lean towards self-determining efforts to election reform. I think that the record speaks for itself in many respects. I can say that the legislation that landed on our desk was not pre-empted with a warning or any type of comment that they were going to roll up our recommendations and try to give them to the rest of Canada. That was never part of our discussion, as far as I know.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Grand Chief Makinaw, could you elaborate on the process that took place with you? Did you have the understanding that this was going to be a blanket approach as well?

[Grand Chief Craig Makinaw]

I can only speak for when I came in, in December 2012. My time has been brief, so I can't speak for other grand chiefs or previous chiefs. From when I started until now, we have just looked at the bill. We've seen it and studied it. That's where I'm coming from, because I just got into the process within the last year.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you.

On the other question I had, you mentioned the cost of court cases and how some first nations wouldn't be able to go forward on that, and they may be forced into a court case that would be very costly to the first nations. When we're looking at the fact that a lot of first nations don't have the resources and tools, I think that's something that needs to be taken into consideration.

We heard Mr. Seeback a while ago talk about how even if there might be flaws in the bill, don't you think this is better than what's out there right now, but to me, we're having the discussion now to fix any flaws that there are in the bill. Wouldn't it be better to fix the flaws now than to have the government find itself spending taxpayers' money in courts? That taxpayers' money could be better invested in building schools on first nations or addressing the poverty issues or the diabetes issues on first nations.

[Grand Chief Derek Nepinak]

I mentioned a recent finding that this government has spent in excess of $100 million in litigating indigenous issues in the last year or so, and it far surpasses the next federal department. When we look at the existing structure, we look at cases such as Woodhouse in 2013 and Balfour in 2009. In one case, a local appeals committee made up community members of the Norway House Cree Nation had their finding of a corrupt election practice upheld by the Federal Court. In Woodhouse, we had the decision of the minister to allege a corrupt election practice and set aside an election overturned by the Federal Court.

Certainly, you look at those two scenarios and they're not ideal because the discretion is not being left to the communities for the final solution. Certainly, you can never deny access to a Canadian court. If someone feels the need to take a local decision made by legitimate representatives of the community and a local appeals committee to a courtroom, then that should be left to the discretion of that person. I believe it to be the better of the two processes than allowing for the minister this broad discretion to set aside an election.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Is there more time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Chris Warkentin]

You have 15 seconds.

We'll turn now to Mr. Clarke for the final questions.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for coming.

Grand Chief Nepinak, with my RCMP background, I had to investigate a lot of allegations of voter fraud at the band level. I'm curious. Currently in Manitoba how many investigations or how many elections are being protested with first nation communities that you sit over?

[Grand Chief Derek Nepinak]

I'm certain that every election in Manitoba is protested by at least one person.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Protested by one person.

[Grand Chief Derek Nepinak]

Whether or not it fits into the criteria or falls into a scenario where the department would acknowledge that is another question.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

At the grassroots level, do the band members come forward and ask you for assistance? Do they show you letters or ask for your help with these allegations of misguided elections?

[Grand Chief Derek Nepinak]

The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs is a chiefs organization. We never get involved in local election concerns.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

What do you direct them to do if they come to you and ask these questions?

[Grand Chief Derek Nepinak]

We will receive the information, often acting as a sounding board, and refer them to the appropriate mechanism, the Indian Act process.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Do you ever recommend that they to go back to the first nation chiefs who are elected where this controversy is taking place?

[Grand Chief Derek Nepinak]

Often the allegations are brought to bear against the existing chiefs and councils that are in decision-making positions in the community.