Evidence of meeting #3 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chiefs.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chief Derek Nepinak  Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs
Chief Craig Makinaw  Grand Chief, Confederacy of Treaty 6 First Nations

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Colleagues, I will call this meeting to order. We have delayed starting because we're looking for one witness who was intending to be here. Hopefully she'll show up partway through.

Colleagues, today we continue our study of Bill C-9. Today we have the privilege of having at this point two grand chiefs with us. We have Derek Nepinak, who is a grand chief, as well as Craig Makinaw.

Thank you so much for being here. We appreciate your both coming and your being willing to testify on behalf of your communities with regard to this particular piece of legislation.

What we'll do which is common to our committee is turn it over to our guests and hear from them for about 10 minutes each. Then we'll begin with rounds of questions.

To begin, we'll turn to Grand Chief Nepinak.

Again, thank you for being here. We'll turn it over to you for the next 10 minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Grand Chief Derek Nepinak Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

[Witness speaks in Ojibwa]

My name is Derek Nepinak. I'm grand chief of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs.

As grand chief of the AMC, I act pursuant to legitimately established mandates of the member chiefs of 60 first nations in Manitoba. I am obligated to adhere to that direction now, as were former grand chiefs of the AMC.

I make this point because it's apparent to me that politicians have been asked to provide personal political opinions as former grand chiefs on the merits of the draft bill, or to add the appearance of legitimacy and process and consultation to the draft bill. For the purposes of accurate reflection, however, it's important to understand that I, Derek Nepinak, am the grand chief of the AMC today, and I'll provide you with an informed opinion unencumbered by personal political agendas.

While I represent the AMC, there are distinct treaty groups or aggregates of treaty communities that wanted to make their views known to this committee. I will say that these communities have a right to be consulted on the intentions of government to create policies or laws that impact or could potentially impact, their exercise of section 35 aboriginal or treaty rights, more specifically, aboriginal or treaty rights to self-government or the pursuit of self-determination.

Within the membership of the AMC, there are approximately 37 first nations communities that hold Indian Act elections, which I'll refer to as section 74 bands, while the remaining communities hold their elections pursuant to custom codes. As I'll explain a little bit later, however, this point is not material, because under the draft legislation the minister has granted a broad discretion under ambiguous terms to bring both custom code and section 74 bands into the purview of the proposed legislation.

It is apparent from our review of draft Bill C-9 that it does not reflect the purpose of the mandate supported and advanced by the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs throughout the engagement period. As we have become accustomed to witnessing as indigenous people, the federal government of the day is demonstrating a lack of good faith by setting aside our recommendations and its own representations and substituting a unilaterally developed bill that includes unwanted provisions and omits key recommendations.

As the bill stands, it includes essentially only one of our recommendations and fails to incorporate all others. The magnitude of variation between the Manitoba recommendations and the draft bill is such that it continues a breach of the trust that the first nations invested in the process and further undermines an already tenuous first nations and federal relationship.

More troubling to us is the federal government's repeated attempts to hold out the proposed legislation as something the AMC agreed to. This is simply false and misleading to the public. In 2010, the AMC chiefs in assembly supported specific limited recommendations with respect to election reform.

During the 2010 assembly, the chiefs reviewed presentations made by INAC officials at the time and passed a resolution supporting a four-year term, a common election date, and a local dispute resolution process. The discussions among the chiefs also included the development of a common first nations election code, developed by the first nations themselves, which could be adopted by each first nation that so chooses. The code in this context is not synonymous with federal legislation.

The resolution also contemplated referenda in each first nation, not federal imposition. This is critically important, because it is by way of referenda that community members have the opportunity to exercise a right of free, prior, and informed consent to the process. The option selected by the chiefs is the only option supported by the Manitoba chiefs, and only as described in our resolution form.

Beyond the omissions and the selective set-aside of recommendations in the draft bill, there exists a fundamental problem with revision, manipulation, or amendment to Indian Act terms or regulations. The fundamental problem lies in the continued denial of the existence of inherent rights of self-determination and self-governance of indigenous people. The premise that the Indian Act or any other legislation developed by federal governments presents the only solution is an affront to the original jurisdiction of first nations people and is an implicit denial of the treaty-based relationship.

In asserting this truth, I propose that indigenous first nations communities do not need, nor are they required to accept, federal legislative initiatives to effect improvement to election systems under the Indian Act if they so choose. Rather, if communities want to run a common election day with other communities, or extend their terms from two to four years, or develop local election appeal mechanisms, they can do so of their own accord, at their own pace, and within their own defined limits.

For the Government of Canada to create, amend, impose, and implement any law pursuant to section 91, class 24, that attempts to manage the relationship between Indians is beyond the scope of section 91 and is not only paternalistic, but it's a perpetuation of the unique brand of colonialism that Canada has now become too well known for.

For many first nations people, elections are equated with Indian Act governance systems. Many band governments continue to operate on the basis of the authority granted in the Indian Act because practical management administration and band moneys are tied to the Indian Act elected chief and council. Customary governance. in contrast, recognizes traditional social organization and means of selecting leaders and provides for broad community input for decision-making.

It is a fallacy to conclude that first nations communities face an either/or proposition on matters of contemporary community governance. In Manitoba there are 37 first nations who hold their elections under the Indian Act while 26 hold their elections pursuant to their own custom election code outside the Indian Act. This is, however, not the plenary of options to communities who invoke self-determining initiatives to effect self-government according to their own terms.

AMC did pass resolutions starting in 2009 specific to this exercise. AMC specifically stated in one of its resolutions that notwithstanding other Canadian jurisdictions, we develop a common election code that respects the authority and jurisprudence of each first nation and ensures our inherent right to self-government and to work in partnership with first nations communities to prepare referenda options for a province-wide referendum with potential timelines to be brought to the next chiefs in assembly in September 2009 for deliberation and decision.

Again, in 2010 we came together and AMC, through resolution, said to request the Minister of INAC fund and take the necessary steps to remove the electoral provisions of the Indian Act that apply to the election of chiefs and implement a new legislative election system affording four-year terms, a common election day and include flexibilities that can be adapted to community needs.

Bill C-9 does not reflect the discussions and the decisions made by the first nations leadership in Manitoba as it purports to grant authority to the minister to subjugate a first nation to the act without the consent of the people. We believe this to be ultra vires with respect to the minister, beyond the powers of the government to legislate. We find that in clause 3(b) of the draft legislation. This discretionary authority defeats the objective of the AMC recommendation that first nations retain their right to opt in. The clause would allow the minister to subjugate those bands that have previously opted out of the Indian Act to custom election procedures. This clause would allow the minister to subjugate bands to the Indian Act who have never been subject to the act, in violation of their inherent and constitutionally protected rights under section 35.

“Protracted leadership dispute” is not a defined term and leaves broad discretion to the minister. The AMC did not make such a recommendation.

The draft bill also purports to grant the authority to the Governor in Council to set aside an election on a report of the minister that there was a corrupt election practice in connection with that election. We believe this also to be ultra vires with respect to the minister. The AMC did not make such a recommendation. This preserves a broad discretion for the minister to determine that there were corrupt practice methods and criteria not outlined under the proposed legislation.

This is a key point. I will reference a recent case that happened in the Federal Court, Woodhouse v. the Attorney General of Canada, Bernard Valcourt representing the ministry of aboriginal affairs. The Federal Court judge found that Minister Valcourt did not establish guilt in terms of a corrupt election practice and his decision was set aside.

Although it's purported that the minister may hold the discretion to set aside an election, that is not clearly defined in law. For the minister to exercise that type of discretion requires certainly a step-by-by step process that he is clearly trying to clean his hands of by delegating or removing himself from the election appeal process, which is another thing that we did not agree to or recommend as the assembly.

The legislation purports to grant the authority to the Governor in Council to set aside an election on a report of the minister that there were corrupt practices in connection with that election. I make this comment as well in contrast to established Canadian law in the Norway House Cree Nation case, Balfour I believe is the case name, where a community finding of a corrupt election practice in the Norway House Cree Nation was upheld at the Federal Court.

On the one hand, we have the minister setting aside a decision on a corrupt election practice and losing in Federal Court, and on the other hand, we have a community code defining what a corrupt election practice is and having that upheld in the Federal Court. The idea that the minister can purport to have the best interests of communities in mind in exercising a discretion that he has, that he retains under the act, to me is a fallacy because we have already proven in the Canadian courts of law that the minister may not have the mechanisms in place to effect the decision according to Canadian law. We believe that was proven in October 2013 in the Woodhouse case in Manitoba.

Another challenge with the draft law is it does not provide Manitoba first nations with the policy of adopting a common election day and an extended term of office. The bill has a quasi common election day that does not mirror the recommendation of the AMC. It also restricts appeal processes to external courts, and this denies access. Referring appeal processes in elections to Canadian court systems denies access to those people who cannot afford to bring an application into a Canadian courtroom under Canadian jurisdiction. That is a truth. Statistics are out there that people who are forced to go to Canadian court systems are denied access on the basis of financial resources.

The bill also does not provide for the creation of a Manitoba chief electoral officer or provide for the appointment of electoral officers by band councils without requiring the minister's approval. If this bill is purported to create self-government or enhance self-determination, why are so many checks and balances in place that need to be vetted through a minister? That seems to be the opposite of what we're trying to achieve.

In conclusion, Bill C-9 is easily characterized as an extension of limited delegated authorities under a paternalistic Indian Act. It is apparent that notions of self-determination and self-government are viewed by the drafters of the legislation as powers that are given or granted to first nations by the federal government.

Manitoba first nations view self-determination and self-government as inherent rights and selection of leadership as fundamental to self-government, included in the suite of self-government rights.

Our right of self-government is self-evident; moreover, it is entrenched in section 35 of the Constitution. Notwithstanding, the federal government continues to propose legislation that is designed over the long term to terminate the existence of status Indians while confining first nations governments within narrowly construed delegated authorities and powers at the discretion of the minister.

Imposing legislation on first nations people pursuant to the Indian Act in this manner perpetuates the federal government's unilateral interpretation of first nations self-government. This approach is inconsistent with our inherent rights, international law, and declarations endorsed by Canada.

The proposed legislation is simply an addition to the Indian Act, citing the same authority and the same definitions granting broad additional powers and discretion to the minister and his office. The legislation mingles only one recommended change from the AMC and the illusion of another. The resulting product is another piece of federal government-owned legislation that perpetuates Canada's self-proclaimed authority over indigenous people.

We live in an age when we should be beyond this type of thinking, ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you very much, Grand Chief Nepinak.

Grand Chief Makinaw, we'll turn to you now for your submission.

November 19th, 2013 / 11:20 a.m.

Grand Chief Craig Makinaw Grand Chief, Confederacy of Treaty 6 First Nations

Good morning.

[Witness speaks in Cree]

Today I am speaking for the Confederacy of Treaty 6 on Bill C-9.

I am pleased to appear today on behalf of the Confederacy of Treaty 6 First Nations as well as my home nation, the Ermineskin Cree Nation.

As grand chief of the confederacy, I'm tasked with advocating for the protection of our treaty rights which have been enshrined in section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982, as well as in the sacred agreements themselves. As grand chief I advocate for the 18 member nations and speak from a unified position.

Today I've been tasked with outlining our concerns with Bill C-9, the first nations elections act, and the continued imposition of supposed Canadian authority over first nations and our governance. The problematic sections of Bill C-9 are as follows.

Overall Bill C-9 can be seen as a slight modification on the current default election system outlined in section 74 of the Indian Act. These slight changes, although minimal, have great implications for first nations that rely on their own custom laws or those encountering some leadership issues. According to INAC numbers, out of 617 first nations in Canada, 238 hold their elections according to the Indian Act, 343 hold custom election systems, and 36 are self-governing.

The changes proposed by the bill may be of interest to the 238 that hold their elections in line with the Indian Act, but they will also have implications for those 343 that hold custom elections.

Our specific concern is with clause 3 of the bill in which the opt-in legislation can be applied by order in council to a first nation for which a protracted leadership dispute has significantly compromised governance of that first nation.

Interpretation of this provision could lead to the imposition of the new act on a first nation that is following a custom election system and that is involved in a dispute. By empowering the minister to impose the act, the Government of Canada once gain is overstepping its bounds in regard to first nations governance.

Disputes in leadership are commonplace in politics, yet first nations are the only bodies of which the leadership can be unilaterally changed, be it through the Indian Act or through Bill C-9.

Further to this intrusion on first nations governance, the minister and INAC are given the ability to define who an elector is. Although some first nations have come in line with Corbiere, the onus falls on the government to determine who these bands are and to deal with them individually. There is no unilateral blanket definition of elector.

These intrusions of the federal government continue to serve as a detriment to leadership and to relationship building, and they seem to impose changes that fit the government agenda.

Compounding the definition of elector is the provision that empowers the electors to petition for a change in leadership. This petition exists and is unique to first nations in a very discriminatory fashion, and as well may lead to the attempted application of the provincial judicial system, which is a violation of section 91, class 24, of the BNA Act, 1867.

These issues must be taken into full consideration by the minister and government.

On the right to self-determination, attempting to impose new provisions regarding first nations elections is a violation of their rights as laid out in section 35.

There are also internationally recognized inherent rights of first nations. A UN declaration outlines the rights of first nations in regard to governance. I've referenced four articles in my presentation. I'll just give the numbers, because there are four different sections, as you all know, in the declaration: article 3, “Indigenous peoples have the right to self-determination; article 4, “Indigenous peoples, in exercising their right to self-determination...”; article 5, “Indigenous peoples have the right to maintain and strengthen their distinct political, legal, economic, social, and cultural institutions...”; and article 6, “Every indigenous individual has the right to a nationality.”

The chiefs of Treaty 6 call upon the INAC minister to respect and enact these provisions of the UN declaration, and not simply recognize, but affirm them through practice.

Bill C-9 is not to be construed as a respecting of first nations governance. The reality is that Canada is attempting to define the rules by which first nations govern themselves, and this is not self-determination.

With respect to the contradictory actions of the government, once again we have an example of the government acting contrary to the statement made by the Prime Minister at the crown-first nations gathering in 2012.

Unilateral imposition or altering of the Indian Act was targeted by Harper as a step in the wrong direction, yet we have been provided with numerous alterations and changes through Bill C-45, Bill C-27, Bill C-9, and finally with Bill C-428.

Chiefs call upon the continued attacks on our sovereignty to cease and for the Prime Minister to stand by his words. Archaic provisions of the Indian Act and perhaps the entire act itself must be scrapped. However, the replacement legislation must be created by first nations and embody the relationships that serve as a foundation for this country. A treaty must be fully implemented and enshrined.

In closing, I would like to state that the provisions that allow for a unilateral imposition of the act on those first nations that follow custom election systems must be re-examined as this is a direct violation of our treaty and their inherent rights enshrined in section 35 as well as in section 91, class 24, of the BNA Act, 1867.

The government appears to be making a habit of violating these foundational documents, including the breaking of the treaty with little recourse or penalty. This continued approach will only hamper progress not only for first nations, but for the country as a whole.

The chiefs of Treaty 6 call upon the government to retract all bills that are unilateral in nature and demand that meaningful consultation begin at the nation-to-nation level.

Thank you for your time and consideration today.

I have another paper besides my confederacy paper from the Treaty 6 chiefs. It's from Ermineskin. They are pretty much the same, so as you read them both, the arguments are the same.

Again, thank you for your time and consideration in my being here today.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin

Thank you, Grand Chief.

We'll turn now to Ms. Crowder for the first round of questioning.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Grand Chief Makinaw and Grand Chief Nepinak.

I want to start with the process. I think you are well aware that the government is claiming it fulfilled its duty to consult because of the process with the Atlantic Policy Congress and the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs.

A briefing document that was provided to us indicated there was a Senate report, and the government tabled a response to that report which indicated “a strong commitment to dialogue and work with first nations regional organizations who are asking for legislative alternatives for first nations elections.” That was in October 2010. In March 2011 the AMC and the APC submitted their report to the minister on the national engagement effort on electoral reform.

When was it that you first saw the actual legislation, Grand Chief Nepinak?

11:25 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Grand Chief Derek Nepinak

To answer your question specifically, the first draft of the legislation, I believe, came across our desks in mid-December.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Of 2011?

11:25 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

At that time my understanding is the recommendations AMC made were only partially included in the draft legislation, and the rest of the legislation did not reflect the input from the AMC.

11:30 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Grand Chief Derek Nepinak

That would be accurate.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

At any time did the government provide you with feedback on the recommendations the AMC had made?

11:30 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Grand Chief Derek Nepinak

In my tenure as grand chief I have not received feedback. I have only received a letter from Deputy Minister Wernick, about five to six pages in length, telling me why I should be supporting the provisions that find themselves in the draft bill.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

At no time at that point were you asked for feedback, other than in the general process they laid out around providing feedback. The AMC, as one of the main consulting organizations, was not asked specifically for feedback with regard to the draft legislation.

11:30 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Grand Chief Derek Nepinak

No. Actually, in contrast, we were asked to support the draft legislation even before we actually saw the draft legislation in hand.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Of course, we all know how irresponsible it is to support legislation before we've actually seen it.

11:30 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

In your view, this supposed consultation process.... I mean, a consultation process from many points of view means that you engage, provide information, and take the recommendations, but then include the consulting people in the drafting of the legislation. That didn't happen.

11:30 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Grand Chief Derek Nepinak

That did not happen, no.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

In your view, does this constitute a meaningful consultation process when the legislation ends up being something that was not in the original recommendations?

11:30 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Grand Chief Derek Nepinak

I think that at certain times political organizations will act as agents for federal policy or legal initiatives, such as the community engagement sessions that the AMC took forward.

In saying that, engaging in a community engagement process without knowing the outcomes of the recommendations, or the implications of putting those recommendations together to arrive at someone's office here in Ottawa without knowing what the implications are, I believe warrants a further degree of consultation with community members, to determine the appropriateness of the draft bill and whether or not they believe it furthers the efforts of self-determination and self-government.

I think there is a very significant component of consultation that is missing in where we are with this bill today.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

I want to turn to Grand Chief Makinaw for a moment.

Grand Chief Makinaw, you talked about one of the more troubling aspects of this piece of legislation, which is the fact that the minister can unilaterally put a first nation into this new legislation. Part of the challenge with this is that the reasons for allowing the minister to do that are ill-defined in the legislation. As Grand Chief Nepinak rightly pointed out, in the Woodhouse case, the minister's decision, in fact, was overturned.

You also pointed out that only first nations will have this unilateral imposition of the minister's will. In fact, unfortunately we are seeing in Toronto right now all kinds of allegations about a politician and there is no mechanism to remove that politician from office. We've seen it in a number of other cases as well, where there are allegations of misdoing and people can't do anything.

In your view, would you like to see that section of the legislation removed?

11:30 a.m.

Grand Chief, Confederacy of Treaty 6 First Nations

Grand Chief Craig Makinaw

Yes, I think it would be good to take that into consideration. I know that a lot of the tribes have their own internal way of dealing with issues. I think it would be a good step if they did that. I see more problems if we're not going to be sitting at the table discussing these issues. That would be a good first step if they did that.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC

Grand Chief Nepinak, you indicated that part of the recommendation that came from the AMC was with regard to a local dispute resolution mechanism. There have been a number of other reports, including a Senate report, that recommended an independent dispute resolution mechanism.

In your view, would that be community by community, or for example, could there be a Manitoba first nations electoral officer?

11:30 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Grand Chief Derek Nepinak

I think referring to best practices might be appropriate in that consideration. I believe that the Norway House Cree Nation custom Election Procedures Act establishes a best practice in defining a local appeal mechanism. That local appeal mechanism, as I mentioned in my presentation, has been exercised, and it has been upheld in the Federal Court. I believe it was the Balfour case, going back I think to 2009.