Evidence of meeting #35 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gabriel Nirlungayuk  Deputy Minister, Environment, Government of Nunavut
William MacKay  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Intergovernmental Affairs, Government of Nunavut
Elizabeth Copland  Chair, Nunavut Impact Review Board
Elizabeth Kingston  General Manager, Nunavut, North West Territories and Nunavut Chamber of Mines
Thomas Kabloona  Chairman, Executive, Nunavut Water Board
Teresa Meadows  Legal Counsel, Shores Jardine LLP, As an Individual
Adam Chamberlain  Director, North West Territories and Nunavut Chamber of Mines
Ryan Barry  Executive Director, Nunavut Impact Review Board

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blake Richards

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the 35th meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development. We're on our study of Bill S-6.

We have with us, for the first 45 minutes, two individuals from the Government of Nunavut: Gabriel Nirlungayuk, the deputy minister of the environment, and William MacKay, acting assistant deputy minister of intergovernmental affairs.

We're fortunate to have both of you with us this morning. We do have 10 minutes allotted for an opening presentation. I'm not sure who is making that.

Mr. Nirlungayuk, we'll have you begin. You have 10 minutes and then we'll take some questions from the members.

8:50 a.m.

Gabriel Nirlungayuk Deputy Minister, Environment, Government of Nunavut

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning. My name is Gabriel Nirlungayuk and I am the deputy minister of environment for the Government of Nunavut. On behalf of Premier Taptuna I would like to thank the committee for this invitation this morning that was extended to the premier. Premier Taptuna sends his regrets. I am appearing on his behalf.

Also appearing for the Government of Nunavut is Mr. William MacKay, acting assistant deputy minister of intergovernmental affairs.

This morning I am here to speak in support of part 2 of Bill S-6, An Act to amend the Nunavut Waters and Nunavut Surface Rights Tribunal Act.

This bill is an important step in creating an effective and modern regulatory regime in Nunavut. The Nunavut Water Board plays an essential role in land and resource management in Nunavut. lt is composed of members appointed or nominated by Inuit, as well as the territorial and federal governments. lt has operated effectively in Nunavut since 1996.

This bill will give the board and regulators important new powers that will ensure that water use in Nunavut is sustainable and environmentally friendly.

Mr. Chair, the Government of Nunavut believes that this bill will make a number of improvements to the regulatory regime in Nunavut. lt will give the water board increased flexibility and give regulators better enforcement powers. lt will ensure a regulatory process with predictable timelines and clear integration with the work of the other regulators and boards in Nunavut.

The Government of Nunavut supports the proposed amendments and was consulted when they were developed. In particular, Mr. Chair, the increase in existing fines associated with water licenses will bring the fine levels in line with those under the Territorial Lands Act, and other pieces of federal environmental legislation, and will serve as an effective deterrent to unlicenced water use.

Likewise, the addition of an administrative monetary penalties regime will give enforcement officers more tools to ensure that this legislation is complied with and will allow for more effective and efficient enforcement of water licence conditions.

Allowing for life-of-project water licences will give the water board the flexibility to issue licences to developers that are better tailored to the particular water use and will give developers clearer certainty of their water rights.

The requirement in the bill that the water board takes into consideration agreements between Canada, regional Inuit associations, and proponents regarding posting of security will address the issue of overbonding, which is a barrier to investment in Nunavut.

The specific timelines that are established in the bill for regulator and minister decisions are particularly welcomed by the Government of Nunavut. This will bring certainty and predictability to Nunavummiut, industry, and other stakeholders.

As the committee can see, this is an important piece of legislation for the north, particularly Nunavut, and will contribute to the environmental protection and economic development for Nunavut.

Mr. Chair, that is all I have in terms of opening comments.

I thank the committee members for your time.

Subject to any further opening remarks by my colleague, Mr. MacKay, we are prepared to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blake Richards

Thank you, Mr. Nirlungayuk.

Mr. MacKay, did you have something to add as well?

March 26th, 2015 / 8:50 a.m.

William MacKay Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Intergovernmental Affairs, Government of Nunavut

Yes, Mr. Chair. I have just a few additional comments.

Thank you to Mr. Nirlungayuk for his comments. As he mentioned, I'm the acting assistant deputy minister for Intergovernmental Affairs.

In my opening comments, I'd like to recognize the role that the federal government has taken in involving Inuit and the Government of Nunavut in its regulatory improvement initiative for the north. Recently it made amendments to the Territorial Lands Act, which has allowed for better enforcement mechanisms and greater predictability and transparency with respect to the management of lands in Nunavut. Also, the federal government worked closely with the Government of Nunavut to enact the Nunavut Planning and Project Assessment Act, which also brings a lot of regulatory certainty to Nunavut, and which we think will foster greater investment in Nunavut. We'd like to acknowledge the federal government's role in involving the territorial government and Inuit in this regulatory initiative.

As members of the committee may know, the Government of Nunavut is currently engaged in devolution discussions to transfer jurisdiction over lands and resources from the federal government to the Government of Nunavut. The proposed amendments to the Nunavut Waters and Nunavut Surface Rights Tribunal Act will contribute to a transparent and effective regulatory system in Nunavut. An effective regulatory system is a key component of devolution and will assist in the transition of land and water management from Canada to Nunavut. As my colleague noted, this is an important piece of legislation for the north and will contribute to the environmental protection and economic development of Nunavut.

Mr. Chair, those are my opening remarks. Like my colleague, I'm prepared to answer any questions from the committee.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blake Richards

Thank you very much, Mr. MacKay.

You certainly both will have an opportunity to answer some questions, I have no doubt.

We'll start off our questioning with Ms. Ashton.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Minister. Thank you to both of you for attending today.

It's our first opportunity to hear from the Government of Nunavut and, frankly, any representative from Nunavut on this bill. We certainly appreciate your presentation today.

Minister, I was very pleased to hear in your presentation that Nunavut was adequately consulted and was a key partner in this entire process. Obviously we're concerned about the rest of the bill pertaining to the Yukon. Consultation is an issue of grave concern in that context.

With focus on the Nunavut Water Board, I'm wondering about some background with respect to decisions around water licences. On average up to now, how long have licence decisions usually taken?

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blake Richards

Mr. Nirlungayuk.

8:55 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Environment, Government of Nunavut

Gabriel Nirlungayuk

I believe that the member of the water board will be appearing before you this morning. I know there are a few projects that have been coming up in Nunavut. It's pretty virgin territory. There are a few mines opening up that, including Meadowbank, near Baker Lake, and Baffinland up in Baffin Island, which I know had to go through the process.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't really tell you, but I believe the water board will be appearing before this committee and they will have a more definitive answer.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Absolutely, and we can definitely relay that question.

I guess it becomes a discussion, which you referred to, about certainty. In the more overall sense with this certainty and the issuing of water licences and, obviously, the powers that the Nunavut Water Board will have, I'm wondering what that will mean for you and your government in terms of development, we hope, in the near future.

8:55 a.m.

Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Intergovernmental Affairs, Government of Nunavut

William MacKay

Well, certainly the amendments made to this bill, plus the amendments to the Territorial Lands Act, plus the new Nunavut Planning and Project Assessment Act, all of those together do give a level of certainty. Timelines are a part of that certainty to investors and project proponents in Nunavut, so they'll have a general idea of how long the process will take. They'll have a general idea from the legislation of what will be requested or expected of them. So we feel that will help investment or encourage investment from people outside Nunavut into the mining industry, in particular.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

That's very positive to hear, of course. In terms of the expanded powers coming from this bill, do you believe in the need, or does your government have a sense of the need, for increased capacity and perhaps increased supports to make sure that now these shorter timelines are fulfilled? Could you speak to us about the issue of capacity and perhaps needs going forward?

9 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Environment, Government of Nunavut

Gabriel Nirlungayuk

I will give you an idea. You know that Nunavut territory is pretty young. We're past the honeymoon phase, I guess, at this point. With its significant mineral potential, the natural resources sector will only continue to grow as infrastructure develops and training and education opportunities. However, there is a significant lack of infrastructure, as you know, in Nunavut, and in some cases that lack of infrastructure presents insurmountable obstacles for projects. For example, there are minerals in central Kitikmeot, in the western part of the territory. Because of the lack of infrastructure, the area's potentials is dormant, as we speak. However, as more companies begin to operate in the territory, infrastructure will grow—which is our hope—and further opportunities will be presented. Considering the continuing investment in the natural resources sector, along with the progress in other economic areas, we see a bright future for Nunavut now.

9 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Okay, thank you for sharing that.

Could you provide perhaps some more specifics about what kind of infrastructure you're referring to?

9 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Environment, Government of Nunavut

Gabriel Nirlungayuk

We lack roads and ports. If you go to the eastern Arctic, I'm sorry to say this, but to be blunt, it might as well be the third world because of the lack of ports. The ships that are coming in have to transport goods to barges. It adds to the expense of goods being delivered to Nunavut. The lack of roads is a big hindrance to development of the territory. When Canada was built in the early 19th century, we were the hinterland, those people up there. So we were forgotten. The infrastructure—roads and ports, airports, housing, you name it—is very expensive. So we are working towards building, with the cooperation of Canada, but we're very lacking in infrastructure.

9 a.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill, MB

Thank you.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blake Richards

Thank you very much.

We'll move now to Mr. Strahl.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to have you here with us this morning. I did appreciate your comments about moving towards devolution. Certainly, we're pleased to announce the appointment of Mr. Brian Dominique as chief federal negotiator to move that along. Obviously, we want to give more provincial-like powers to the territories as part of our northern strategy. That was a good milestone, and I'm sure you're all working hard to get to devolution as soon as possible. I was encouraged to hear, as well, about the process that led us to the Nunavut regulatory improvements here.

I did want to talk a bit about the administrative monetary penalties scheme. You mentioned that it was a way to more effectively encourage—I don't know if it's more of an encouragement or a deterrent to—unlicensed water use, etc.

Could you maybe just walk me through what happens now in the territory if there is unlicensed water use, for instance? What are the tools available to you and how will they improve under the proposed regulatory system?

9:05 a.m.

Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Intergovernmental Affairs, Government of Nunavut

William MacKay

Right now, it's very difficult to get a conviction under the current process, because you have to lay a charge—the same way you would with a criminal charge—and then that has to go through to court, and then you have to get a conviction, and then you can impose a fine. Because of that, there are very few prosecutions of environmental offences in Nunavut. We're hoping that the AMPs system—administrative monetary penalties system—which has been used in other parts of Canada and has proven to effective in better enforcement of environmental legislation, will improve enforcement, because it gives inspectors another tool to enforce the legislation. Under the AMPs system, as you know, they're able to lay a charge at the site where the environmental legislation may be being violated and then it's up to the accused violator to appeal to the minister to show that they actually were not in violation of the act.

It has the effects of being able to enforce the legislation and also being able to stop violations right away, rather than having to lay a charge. If you lay a charge, potentially the violation could continue until a conviction was brought, whereas an AMP allows you to stop the violating action right there.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

Excellent. Thank you.

You also mentioned, in your opening remarks, the issue of overbonding, which is one that we'll be hearing about from the Chamber of Mines later on as well.

It's not a term that I've been familiar with for long, so could you maybe just talk about overbonding—what it is and how it is an impediment to economic development in Nunavut and how you believe this bill will address that issue as well.

9:05 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Environment, Government of Nunavut

Gabriel Nirlungayuk

In Nunavut, because we have land claims agreements with the Inuit who have land and subsurface rights, along with crown land, we are pleased that this bill is going to give a direction o resolving double bonding and greater certainty and clarity as to how the agreements would work. Currently, it's a hindrance for proponents, but this bill will give clarity. It's an issue right now and the lack of clarity hinders companies from coming up. This bill will give clarity.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

Essentially, as I understand it, it's a requirement for a proponent to provide a bond to one level of government and then they have to provide it to another, so they're essentially doing it twice. They have to lay out the same amount of money for one project to bond, essentially, which obviously, in today's economic climate is a difficult barrier to overcome.

9:05 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Environment, Government of Nunavut

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

You mentioned that industry is just starting to develop plans for Nunavut, and you mentioned a couple of projects near Baker Lake. Obviously, right now with commodity prices and access to the capital for some of these major players, it's difficult. Are there any projects on the horizon? Are we more in the discovery stage, or are there any that are on to capitalization and actually getting some of those minerals out of the ground?

9:05 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Environment, Government of Nunavut

Gabriel Nirlungayuk

Currently, we have two operating mines in Nunavut. We've just gone through public hearings on Meadowbank mine near Rankin Inlet, which is a gold mine. We've gone through another, very controversial public hearing on AREVA, a uranium project near Baker Lake. There are a lot of minerals around Baker Lake. It's very controversial, but it has gone through the process. As you said, depending on the commodity prices of uranium.... The tribunal will have to weigh in the evidence, and evidence will be given to the minister for approval.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC

Thank you.