Evidence of meeting #9 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sites.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Noon
Director, Resource Policy and Programs Directorate, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I want to clarify about policy direction. It's policy direction, in general. It's not specific to a project and it's not a decision.
Noon
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
I understand what policy is, madam. I do, actually. But you said it's only on federal lands that the minister.... If there's a project, a new mine that opens up on territorial land, will the minister not make the decisions on the terms and conditions of the environmental assessment?
Noon
Director, Resource Policy and Programs Directorate, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The responsible ministers would make that decision.
Noon
Director, Resource Policy and Programs Directorate, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Currently, under the MVRMA, the environmental assessment decisions are consensus-based decisions between the territorial minister and the federal minister. That would continue.
December 10th, 2013 / noon
Alison Lobsinger Manager, Legislation and Policy, Northern Affairs, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Responsible ministers will continue to make decisions as they do now. So it's all ministers with jurisdiction for development—
Noon
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
So you have two governments that have to agree, on a consensus basis, on the terms and conditions of any development. What if there's a disagreement?
12:05 p.m.
Manager, Legislation and Policy, Northern Affairs, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Right. They would work it out the way they work it out currently.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
Okay, so the big minister wins, eh? I think that would be safe to say.
12:05 p.m.
Manager, Legislation and Policy, Northern Affairs, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
No.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
The act still falls under the purview of the minister, doesn't it?
12:05 p.m.
Manager, Legislation and Policy, Northern Affairs, Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It would be a consensus decision between the ministers federally and the ministers with the GNWT. They make a consensus—
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
So is this how we're going to conduct environmental assessments now? Two governments have to decide on the terms and conditions of environmental assessments? And this is going to be an improvement?
12:05 p.m.
Director, Resource Policy and Programs Directorate, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That is how it is done currently. The environmental assessment process itself is not changing post-devolution and post-amendments to this act.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you, Mr. Bevington. I think you have your answer and it's been very clear.
Mr. Leef, we'll turn to you now for the next five minutes.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm sure now we'll hear from the member from Western Arctic that he doesn't feel as though he was consulted adequately after that argument.
But we have the opportunity to look at the Yukon experience. Certainly, some of that experience has been put into your thinking and the process of devolution for the Northwest Territories that's occurred for many years now. Can you maybe highlight some of the key aspects of the Yukon devolution agreement that you learned from? And what are some of the significant differences that are deployed in the Northwest Territories devolution agreement that you put in specifically because you learned from the Yukon experience?
12:05 p.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I think the biggest lesson learned is our approach to waste sites. The model that was employed in the Yukon was somewhat different than what we've done in the Northwest Territories.
In the Northwest Territories we've identified those sites that Canada is fully responsible for. Rather than transferring sites and then remediating them, in coordination with the Government of Yukon we've decided to maintain full liability for the sites. We'll clean them up. We'll monitor them, and once that monitoring period is over we'll transfer the clean bill to the Government of Northwest Territories.
I would also say that the biggest consideration as well, beyond waste sites, was our approach to implementation. Part of the lessons learned was that there was not enough focus on implementation, gearing up towards getting ready for devolution in Yukon. Certainly we've put a big emphasis on implementation planning, and now we're in the throes of implementing the agreement, getting ready for the transfer date. Those are things around knowledge retention, corporate memory, and things like that.
Also what's important is the work that needs to happen about the residual organization, what Canada will be doing in the north, post-devolution. Those are some of the lessons learned. That's more specific in terms of our planning as opposed to the devolution.
There were some other unique circumstances, but they had more to do with the nature of the Yukon as opposed to the Northwest Territories. Forestry was already dealt with in Northwest Territories but wasn't dealt with in Yukon—things like that.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Fair enough. And there would be some differences between first nations land claim agreements and whatnot.
In the Yukon, with the environmental assessment and then the approval process, it starts right down at the district level. So you have a district level review of a project. That's taking into account technical reports, largely submitted by territorial employees, whether it's land management, forestry, territorial environment, or fisheries—any basic regulatory or inspection body or technical body that can contribute to a district review of a particular project. That information is assessed by the environmental review. They make a recommendation up to the main board. That's considered by the territorial ministers who are responsible for those respective decisions. Those projects in the territory over the last 10 years have been largely well regarded and well received. Do you envision that being any different in the Northwest Territories now?
12:05 p.m.
Director, Resource Policy and Programs Directorate, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
No. There are similarities between how we approach the Yukon Environmental and Socio-economic Assessment Act and the MVRMA. Both are federal pieces of legislation. The boards, as you know, are both federal boards funded by Canada, and appointments are made by the minister in both cases.
There are, of course, unique circumstances because of the unique circumstances of each territory, but as a general rule in principle the approach is very similar and the outcomes, we would hope, would be very similar to those of Yukon. The Yukon has performed very well economically, as you know, over the past several years.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
I don't recall a time when we've had an instance where the federal minister has inserted himself in a decision that was contrary to the wishes and the determination of the YESAA board and the technical reports and both industry and employees. I think there's a bit of irresponsible fearmongering when it's suggested that the federal minister all of a sudden is going to be the single judge, jury, and executioner of the wants and wishes of the people of the Northwest Territories when it comes to these environmental reviews.
We're looking at the Yukon experience, and you articulated clearly that there doesn't seem to be any difference with how it will roll out in the Northwest Territories. I think most reasonable people accept the fact that the reviews that are undertaken in the Northwest Territories will be those that are best for the Northwest Territories as decided by those people.
Could you maybe just quickly touch on whether there's a transfer of jobs that's going to occur and what impact that might have through the devolution agreement—whether that will enhance opportunities for people in the Northwest Territories—and if there's any additional transfer legislation that will either positively or negatively impact the NWT in that regard?
12:10 p.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Chapter 7 outlines what we call the human resources chapter and that governs the whole transfer of functions from the Government of Canada to the Government of the Northwest Territories with respect to human resources. It was the objective of the two governments and of all the parties to ensure a seamless transition. So we talk about transfer of authorities, but we need to also talk about transfer of knowledge, and what's most important, that knowledge is our employees.
We spent a great deal of time negotiating that chapter. As I mentioned before, it governs what constitutes a reasonable job offer from the Government of the Northwest Territories. There are two different competition systems between the Government of Canada and the Government of the Northwest Territories. We have to crunch numbers and do some comparisons. I can tell you from the milestone perspective that six months prior to transfer date—which was October 1—is when the federal employees based in the Northwest Territories were to receive reasonable job offers. I believe in the neighbourhood of 130 received those job offers. They had two months to consider them; December 2 was the deadline. Out of all of those job offers that were made, all but I believe two accepted the job offers of the Government of the Northwest Territories. So we were successful in ensuring a good transfer of knowledge and capacity to the Government of the Northwest Territories.
With respect to the legislation, I think there are something like 32 different acts that are going to be amended or repealed as a result of this package. It would take a long time to go through it today, it's a fairly big endeavour.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you.
We'll turn to Mr. Bevington now for the next questions.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
Well, Mr. Chair, I'd advise the member for the Yukon sitting across that he should look at the concerns that people have right now over the environmental assessment on the Giant Mine on which the Environmental Assessment Board has made a number of recommendations, which are now very much subject to ministerial review.
It is an issue of great concern to all the people in the Northwest Territories that we play a significant and important role in decision-making. That's why I'm trying to understand completely how the decision-making process will go ahead under this new act. If it is as you say consensus—I lived in a consensus....
What does consensus mean to you? Does that mean the majority rules? Or does it mean that a decision is held off because there is no consensus?
12:10 p.m.
Director, Resource Policy and Programs Directorate, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
As is the case currently where there are two regulatory authorities invoked, so territorial minister and federal minister, they come to a consensus. If they have a different approach, they speak to each other, they work through, they come to a consensus. I'm not aware of any times where that's been a challenge to date. Our expectation is that this won't pose a challenge post-devolution either.
12:15 p.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
Through the Chair, I refer you to the fact that now the Government of the Northwest Territories is taking on more responsibility for land and for environment. It's going to be the one that determines what the recommendations are to a greater degree than in previous days when the federal government had those powers on the ground.
What we see now is the Government of the Northwest Territories will be the one that determines whether the nature of environmental impact, the recommendations that come out of technical committees, will be more aligned with the Government of the Northwest Territories. My concern is will those recommendations then be subject to the federal concern? We're changing the system here. It's not the same as it was before. There are different powers with different people. I want to understand how that decision-making is going to take place. That to me is an important part of what's going on here because ultimately if the federal government makes decisions that don't fit with recommendations that are coming from our territorial government, it may be that we'll end up on the short end of the stick when it comes to reclamation. There may be situations that could occur where there's not enough remediation money put in place for taking care of development at the end. Those are decisions that the minister may have influence on and I want to know exactly how that relationship is going to work.