Evidence of meeting #9 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sites.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:20 a.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Again, I think the preference of both the Government of Canada and the Government of the Northwest Territories was to follow the modernization exercise that took place in the Yukon.
11:20 a.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
You mean that the Government of the Northwest Territories didn't want to hear the written instructions that were going from the Governor in Council to the commissioner of the Northwest Territories?
11:20 a.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
In our discussions with the Government of the Northwest Territories, that issue was never raised.
11:20 a.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
It was never raised by the Government of the Northwest Territories?
11:20 a.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
That's right.
11:20 a.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
That seems to be large omission on their part—a very simple thing like that. Certainly we'll have to ask them about that as well.
Also, within the bill, the Governor in Council may direct the commissioner to withhold his assent to a bill that has been introduced in the legislative assembly.
Is that similar in the Yukon?
11:20 a.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Yes, it is.
11:20 a.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
I want to talk a bit about clause 60 in the bill.
Could you explain that clause in greater detail? It's something that we'll have some questions on afterwards.
11:25 a.m.
Senior Counsel, Negotiations, Northern Affairs and Federal Interlocutor, Department of Justice
I can address that question for the member. Clause 60 of part 1 of the bill deals with the minister's entering into agreement with the provincial government in respect of waters that flow from federal lands to non-federal lands.
Currently the federal Northwest Territories Waters Act has a similar provision that allows for the Minister of AANDC to enter into an agreement with a province for waters in the Northwest Territories. It's not restricted to federal lands. So to reflect the transfer of administration control that's happening with devolution, the provision from the Northwest Territories Waters Act was taken and restricted to situations where waters are flowing from or through federal lands and non-federal lands.
That's what clause 60 is about. It's a restriction of a current power.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Chris Warkentin
Thank you very much.
We'll turn to Mr. Clarke now, for the next seven minutes.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for coming in.
Where to start? I have a couple of questions here, first of all in regard to the land claims and how complicated they are, especially with different jurisdictions or provincial territories involved, such as the Athabasca Dene in northern Saskatchewan. How is devolution going to affect the Athabasca Dene first nation land claim? When we see the Akaitcho and the Athabasca not being willing to meet in order to negotiate land claims.... What we've seen in northern Saskatchewan is that the Athabasca Dene do have gravesite markers, and they're so close, right on the border of the Northwest Territories.
I'm just wondering if that has been taken into consideration in devolution file management.
11:25 a.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Aboriginal engagement and consultation throughout the evolution of the devolution agreement was fairly extensive. The Aboriginal Summit participated in the negotiations from the outset until about 2005. Subsequently, after signing the agreement in principle, we undertook a three-phase crown consultation exercise that included consulting with not just the resident aboriginal groups in the Northwest Territories, but also transboundary groups. Both the Athabasca Denesuline and the Manitoba Denesuline were consulted during those phases.
We took great pains to ensure that nothing in the devolution agreement would affect existing rights, asserted rights, or even negotiation processes. I can point to a couple of specific examples of the results of those consultations and engagements throughout our discussions over the course of the last 13 years or so.
Section 2.5 of the agreement speaks to what we call the non-derogation clause. There is nothing in this agreement that abrogates or derogates from existing aboriginal treaty rights.
Section 2.6 is a key one. In fact, we were able to modify this provision as a result of our direct consultation with both the Athabasca and Manitoba Denesuline. Provision 2.6 of the agreement states that:
This Agreement shall not delay, impair or impede any negotiation processes in progress at the date of signing of this Agreement among Aboriginal peoples having or asserting rights in the Northwest Territories,
So you don't need to be a resident of the Northwest Territories; it's if you are asserting or in a process. That was a key one that we've accommodated.
Again, 2.7 and 2.8 are measures that ensure aboriginal and treaty rights are protected.
But beyond that, we've also included active measures that enable the Government of Canada to take back lands in the case of being able to settle an agreement. So upon conclusion of the land claim or treaty, the Government of Canada has an opportunity to take lands back in order to then transfer them to first nations pursuant to a settlement agreement.
So there are a number of different clauses in there. You may be interested in the take-back-land provision found under 3.38.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
The concern I have, that I think the Athabasca Dene first nation communities up north have, is with the Akaitcho not being willing to actually participate in the process. Have you found that problematic?
11:30 a.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I can sympathize with groups that are trying to engage with other aboriginal groups in resolving or coming to consensus over shared areas. Certainly, our focus from the Government of Canada's perspective was to ensure that nothing in this agreement impacted the ability of either Akaitcho Denesuline or Athabasca Denesuline to resolve their issues or conclude an agreement with either the Government of the Northwest Territories or the Government of Canada.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
You indicated that 24 aboriginal organizations were invited to participate in technical consultation sessions, and funds were made available to assist them in doing so.
How much money was allocated for the consultation process?
11:30 a.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I would have to get back to the committee with the exact number. It was project-based and so it was dependent on each of the different organizations. It also included in the third phase, the legislative phase, regulation improvement initiatives. I'd be happy to provide the specific number.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
Are we talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars or are we talking—
11:30 a.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
It was less than half a million.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
It was less than half a million.
We always hear about the duty to consult. Were there a lot of organizations or first nation organizations that just weren't willing to participate?
11:30 a.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
As the devolution agreement evolved, the participation of various groups increased. In the earlier stages of the negotiations we had less engagement, but as we got to the finish line there was a great deal of interest and uptake.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
If you can, please get back to us with how much funds were allocated for the consultation process, and where they took place. I know that the Athabasca would like to participate in that process, as well, so that they have their issues recognized.
One question I have on the Northwest Territories is in regard to their participation with first nations. Do you know if they were actively engaged with the Dene in Saskatchewan?
11:30 a.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I don't know the answer to that. I know that the premier had very ambitious aboriginal engagement and outreach upon his election. I know that he had travelled throughout the Mackenzie Valley, including the Iqaluit area, but I'm not sure of the level of engagement with transboundary groups.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Rob Clarke Conservative Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK
The whole negotiations process took 25 years and then the regulations was an additional five years. Is that correct?
11:30 a.m.
Director, Northwest Territories Devolution Negotiations, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
I beg your pardon?