Evidence of meeting #10 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Françoise Ducros  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Direction, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Joe Wild  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada
Stephen Van Dine  Assistant Deputy Minister, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Paul Thoppil  Chief Financial Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Serge Beaudoin  Director General, Sector Operations Branch, Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Thank you, Minister, for being here today. Congratulations on your role.

Resource sector investment is down by $60 billion. Particularly in my riding, investment has been fleeing. Shell Canada has been operating in my riding for quite a while. They had a huge project called the Carmon Creek project. It was an oil sands project. They recently cancelled it. It was a $10-billion project. They had spent $2 billion when they left. It was shocking to my community. They gave two reasons why they left, namely, the lack of pipelines, and instability in the regulatory framework.

What's your plan to bring that resource investment back?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Carr Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

I think the best chance of bringing investment back into the resource sector in Canada would be a spike in commodity prices. I'm sure that any proponent of a major project who has made a decision either permanently or in the short term to suspend investment would have to say that international commodity prices were a component in that decision. After all, we are looking at prices in natural gas and oil that are historically low.

Yes, the regulatory environment and certainty are very important to proponents and investors. That's exactly why we're adding some certainty to the process with these projects that are currently under review. That's why, in any permanent environmental assessment regime for Canada, fairness to proponents is part of what we imagine as the best possible arrangement.

Also, you'll know that among the five principles that we announced would govern the transition phase, not going back to square one was the first, because that would not be fair to proponents. We understand that predictability and certainty are very important to any investment decision.

Also, on a personal note, for 16 years before I had the pleasure of representing the people of Winnipeg South Centre, I was the president and chief executive officer of the Business Council of Manitoba. I understand the power of entrepreneurship. I understand that corporate social responsibility is fundamental to succeed and progress in the contemporary corporate world. I am very confident that most executives in companies know that too. I also understand that there is a spirit of innovation and entrepreneurship in this sector. Even the oil sands companies that are very active in trying to understand the best use of limited resources now are still investing together in sustainable practices of extraction. It's very impressive the amount of investment that has come—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

The Shell project I'm talking about was one of those projects that was cutting edge. On sustainable resource development, SAGD was the term.

It was interesting that the oil price had been down for about a year already when they cancelled the project. They had already renegotiated all the contracts. This project had become significantly cheaper for them to do and they were continuing to do it, but then, more recently, they cancelled it altogether.

You have mentioned social licence before. I'm wondering if you could try to clarify that for me a little bit. I would also like to know if you're aware of the Eagle Spirit pipeline project that's out there.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Carr Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Actually, I don't think I used the expression “social licence”. I think I talked about meaningful engagement in first nations communities, which I believe is essential to moving forward.

I'm not going to comment on individual projects.

Getting back to your question, I'm happy to comment on the reasons that Shell has given for cancelling or putting a project on hold. Regulatory reform, regulatory certainty and predictability is absolutely essential. It's essential for Canada. That's why we are taking that responsibility seriously. It's unfortunate that over the last number of years we have not been able to get approval for major infrastructure projects. One of the reasons we have not been able to get approval is because—

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

It was approved and it was ongoing.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Carr Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Yes, I'm not talking about a particular project, I'm talking about the system of regulating and the system of approving environmental assessment as a part of these projects. All I am saying is that our track record in recent times has not been successful. We're trying another way. We're hopeful that it will get us to a combined objective of moving our resources to markets sustainably.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you.

We have time for just two of Mike Bossio's five minutes.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Sure.

Thank you very much, Minister, for being here today and for your thoughtful answers.

One area that you did talk about was the NEB. I am very thankful that our government is moving toward a more consultative and consent process, but part of that is making sure that we have represented stakeholders in these different bodies. You mentioned that you're going to bring the indigenous community into the NEB, but in temporary positions. I wonder if you could explain that further, as to why temporary rather than permanent positions.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Carr Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Temporary is only in the energy east review. There will be permanent reforms to the National Energy Board and the composition of the National Energy Board. As part of our mandate and the platform commitments, we have said that the National Energy Board should be more reflective of the diversity of the country including, in particular, the indigenous cultural background and perspective.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Is there a plan to replace diesel power in indigenous communities? Some need more available powers at source.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Carr Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Yes, there is. Those commitments are included in the budget. We understand there is dependence on diesel fuel in remote communities. We understand that's an issue. We also understand that there have to be viable alternatives to diesel power. The Minister of Indigenous Affairs is working diligently on that file, and so are we at Natural Resources Canada. We understand the issue. We've made initial investments in budget 2016 and we'll be very seriously looking at ways that we can be more impactful in the future.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you very much. We'll have to leave it there.

Minister Carr, Deputy Minister Hamilton, on behalf of the committee I want to express our appreciation for your time and comments today, and we hope to see you again.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Carr Liberal Winnipeg South Centre, MB

Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

I'm going to suspend briefly, for about a minute, while we invite our new witnesses to come forward.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

We'll come back to order and make the most of our time here.

I am very pleased to welcome staff from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development today. Joining us are Serge Beaudoin, director general, sector operations branch and regional operations; Françoise Ducros, senior assistant deputy minister of policy and strategic direction; Paul Thoppil, chief financial officer; Steven Van Dine, assistant deputy minister, northern affairs; and Joe Wild, senior assistant deputy minister, treaties and aboriginal government.

Welcome all of you. Thank you very much for making time for us today. We look forward to hearing what you have to say.

I'm happy to give you 10 minutes to make opening comments. You can share those minutes among yourselves in any way you see fit. I have a yellow card here to show you at 9 minutes, then I'll show the 10-minute card and I'd ask you to finish up then so we can maintain fairness in the questioning.

Please, the floor is yours.

4:30 p.m.

Françoise Ducros Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Direction, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you for having us.

Today I'd like to provide an overview of Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada's mandate, its responsibilities, organizational structure, and key priorities for the 2016-17 years.

Before I begin, I would note that I am also tabling a presentation entitled “Main estimates 2016-2017” for your information. The presentation contains the department's financial context and expenditure information. While I won't speak to this presentation today, Paul Thoppil, the chief financial officer, would be pleased to respond to your questions.

INAC's minister oversees a complex and challenging portfolio and provides leadership on the Government of Canada's relationship with indigenous peoples and its responsibilities in the north. The department has a dual mandate: indigenous affairs and northern affairs. In some cases there's overlap between the two areas, but as often as not the two are separate.

The minister's mandate is derived from a number of statutes. Of particular note, the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development Act outlines the powers and duties of the minister and the department. While the term “Indian” remains in the department's legal name because of this act, the term “indigenous” is now used in the department's applied title under the federal identity program.

Section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982 recognizes and affirms existing aboriginal and treaty rights, and section 91(24) of the Constitution Act gives the federal department exclusive legislative authority over “Indians, and Lands reserved for the Indians”.

The department's mission is to work to make Canada a better place for indigenous and northern people and communities. We work towards this by promoting reconciliation and fulfilling our constitutional and legal obligations to indigenous peoples. We work to improve quality of life and to support and enable indigenous peoples' participation and inclusion in Canada's economy.

In general, INAC has primary but not exclusive responsibility for meeting the federal government's constitutional treaty, political, and legal responsibilities to indigenous peoples and northerners.

The presentation before you outlines INAC's key objectives as well as a comprehensive listing of responsibilities and activities. These include engaging in dialogue with indigenous peoples about rights that have yet to be recognized or established; negotiating comprehensive and specific claims and self-government agreements, and implementing related obligations; implementing the Indian Act, which remains the primary vehicle for exercising federal jurisdiction under 91(24) and the Constitution Act, 1967 which guides how the minister interacts with first nations; implementing approximately 93 other statutes covering a wide range of subjects and responsibilities; and supporting the minister as the Government of Canada's primary interlocutor for Métis and non-status Indians.

INAC also funds the delivery of programs and services for first nations on reserve as a matter of policy, including provincial and municipal-type programming and services such as education, social housing, emergency management, and community infrastructure, often in partnership or through memoranda of understanding with provinces and territories. It is important to note that indigenous peoples residing off reserve have full access to provincial social and education programming. This context points to the need to work closely with provincial and territorial governments in developing solutions to issues facing indigenous peoples.

INAC also supports indigenous participation and inclusion in Canada's economy through entrepreneurship and community economic development programs; indigenous involvement in natural resource development and management, such as participation in commercial fisheries; key opt-in legislation, such as the First Nations Land Management Act; and indigenous labour force readiness in participation activities.

Through its northern development mandate, INAC leads federal government efforts for two-fifths of Canada's land mass, with a direct role in advancing the Northern Strategy through the political and economic development of the territories and significant responsibilities for science, land, and environmental management. In the north the territorial governments generally provide the majority of social programs and services to all northerners, including indigenous people; however, INAC serves as a focal point for Inuit issues and supports the inclusion of Inuit-specific concerns in federal program and policy development.

My presentation provides some information on the terminology used to refer to indigenous peoples today, as well as some brief demographic information on the populations we serve in executing INAC's mandate and responsibilities.

The term “aboriginal peoples” refers to the descendants of the original inhabitants of North America. The Constitution Act 1982 recognizes three groups: Indian, Métis, and Inuit. There are three separate peoples with unique heritage, languages, cultural practices, and spiritual beliefs.

The term “indigenous” is similar to aboriginal, in that it refers to all three status groups in Canada: first nations, Métis, and Inuit. Indigenous is used in the international context and is the preferred term in English. Both terms translate into French as autochtone.

The term “status Indian” refers to a person registered as an Indian under the Indian Act, while “non-status Indian” refers to an Indian person who is not registered as an Indian under the act.

There are legal reasons for the continued use of the term “Indian”. Such terminology is recognized in the Indian Act and is used by the Government of Canada when making reference to the particular group.

“First nations people”, though, is the term that refers to Indian peoples in Canada both with and without status under the act. Some communities have adopted the term first nations rather than band.

“Inuit” are indigenous people in northern Canada living primarily in Nunavut, the Northwest Territories, northern Quebec, and northern Labrador. “Métis” refers to the people of mixed first nation-European ancestry who identify as Métis.

In terms of demographics, about half of the registered Indians live on reserves, with the majority of non-status Indians and Métis living in urban centres.

INAC's program alignment architecture or PAA is an inventory of all the programs undertaken by the department for systematic reporting, from main estimates to Public Accounts. The PAA forms the backbone of each department's report on plans and priorities. Planned performance in regard to financial resources, human resources, and program results are articulated at all levels in the PAA.

INAC's 2016-17 PAA is organized by four strategic outcomes and is supported by 15 departmental programs and 37 subprograms. The four strategic outcomes are: the government, which supports good governance rights and interests of indigenous peoples; the people, which addresses individual, family, and community well-being for first nations and Inuit; the land and economy, which addresses full participation of first nations, Métis and non-status Indians, and Inuit individuals and communities in the economy; and the north.

The program alignment architecture illustrates how the work of the department has been organized in the past. This structure will be used with minor changes for the upcoming year, and will be revisited for future years.

To deliver on its responsibilities, the department is organized into nine sectors that provide services for Canadians. Key activities of each sector are referenced in my presentation. All of their activities support and align with the department's four strategic outcomes.

As well, INAC has 10 regional offices and one special operating agency, Indian Oil and Gas Canada. The regional offices are critical to the work of the department. They support the effective delivery of the wide range of programs, activities, and services that the department undertakes. They maintain direct links with the communities we serve and with the provincial and territorial governments and other partners. Although INAC's mission and objectives are similar from region to region, the economic, social, and cultural profile of indigenous peoples is diverse and varies across and within regions.

In addition, five corporate service functions support departmental activities through the provision of communication services, human resources and workplace services, audit and evaluation, corporate secretariat functions, and legal services.

It is becoming increasingly important for the sectors to work together to implement the department's priorities, just as different departments across the federal government need to come together to support government-wide priorities.

Here, on page 11, we have provided you with some information on how departmental staff are distributed across regions and headquarters. The proportion of staff in each region generally corresponds to the relative size of the indigenous population in each region.

Concerning the current direction, we have provided an overview of key indigenous northern commitments that have been articulated in Minister Bennett's mandate letter and the Speech from the Throne. These commitments are what will guide INAC over the next four years. Tabled in the House of Commons on March 22, budget 2016 also announced historic investments totalling $8.4 billion over five years to implement the commitments. Proposed investments in education, infrastructure, training, and other programs will be implemented in collaboration with a number of other departments.

For the purposes of INAC's report on plans and priorities, the department has translated these commitments into five major cross-cutting themes: moving forward with rights and reconciliation; putting children and youth first; supporting stronger indigenous communities; improving quality of life for Métis, individuals, and communities; and fostering a strong and inclusive north.

All of the priorities are horizontal in nature and will require co-operation with other federal departments, with provinces and territories, with municipal governments, and, most importantly, with indigenous communities and organizations.

Just to conclude, INAC has a leading role on behalf of the federal government in advancing the reconciliation agenda and the nation-to-nation relationship with indigenous peoples, as well as a direct role in advancing the northern strategy through political and economic development.

The roles are wide ranging and they're constantly evolving. We're trying to do everything with a sense of partnership.

With that, I'll conclude and take your questions.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you very much Ms. Ducros.

We're going to move into a round of seven-minute questions beginning with Mike Bossio.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

There's so much to ask and so many directions to go in.

We talk about how we're going to fund different parts of services and projects in indigenous communities, yet we have this grant and operational funding mechanism. Within that, the indigenous communities have to apply every year for a grant, and the grant is very restrictive as to what they can put that money towards, so it doesn't really leave a lot of room for the indigenous communities to prioritize where their real needs are.

Would you agree that a funding mechanism that works more closely with the needs of the individual community would work better so that there would be long-term sustainable funding for those communities directed toward those specific needs?

4:45 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Direction, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Françoise Ducros

That's a great question, and I'll let Paul elaborate.

There are various forms and ways in which we fund, including through the contribution agreements and proposal-based programs. Some of them have grants. A lot of them are done through one-year contribution agreements and some are done through five-year agreements and some are done through grants.

I think there's an undertaking or a commitment by the government to explore how we get to a better fiscal relationship to get to that predictable and sustainable funding. A grant is one way to do that. There are other overarching mechanisms, which my colleagues may want to add something on, that try to actually move towards that reconciliation agenda and move away from community-by-community funding and get into broader self-government and other agreements.

I would agree that there's work to do on how we get to a funding relationship writ large.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

There's one other aspect of this that I would like to address as well. In 2015 the department announced its new approach to fiscal relations with self-governing aboriginal communities and a policy commonly referred to as fiscal harmonization that would apply to self-governing nations and Inuit communities. The policy includes formulas for determining federal funds transferred to indigenous governments, but the policy still includes the fixed amount element within the funding formula for indigenous governance. It also reduces the per capita amount given to indigenous governments with higher populations.

Some indigenous communities have complained that the provision of social services is not scalable in that the community members should not be penalized for the large populations of the communities. How would you respond to that part of that whole funding concern?

I say that because I have an indigenous community in my riding, and that's exactly the situation they're trying to deal with right now. They're really between a rock and a hard place.

4:45 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Strategic Direction, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Françoise Ducros

I would respond by turning it over my colleague, Joe Wild, who deals with treaties and aboriginal agreements.

4:45 p.m.

Joe Wild Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada

Thank you.

It is interesting that those who are in self-government have a completely different fiscal relationship than do those who are not. Typically you're talking about a 10-year agreement whereby you're providing a government transfer that funds the bulk of the operations of the self-governing first nation.

You're right in that some concerns have been noted about the fiscal approach. I think I would say two things about the fiscal approach. One is that when it was made public, we were basically being transparent about how the mandates were actually being constructed to fund self-governing first nations. We have been using the formulas that are enunciated in that policy for quite some time.

The idea was that we wanted to be completely transparent about the basis on which we were doing that so that we could have a different conversation about how to actually move forward in a way in which we could have a funding approach that would be more responsive to the actual needs of the given self-governing nation. As part of that policy, we committed to an approach under which we would work with the 27 that are under self-governing arrangements to develop together how we should shape that policy to serve the interests into the future. The policy was never meant to have a shelf life. It wasn't launched with the idea that it would be in place for x amount of time. It was launched to say here's how we've currently been doing it. We made some changes based on feedback we had received around own-source revenue, but the intent was to move forward by having a dialogue on how we could work together to develop a different approach that would help to satisfy the needs of the first nations.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

I get that.

I'd like to turn this over to Michael McLeod. He has a question he wants to follow up on.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michael McLeod Liberal Northwest Territories, NT

Mr. Chairman, just quickly, I've been trying to wrestle this through to make some sense of the policy that overrides the agreement that was made in the land claim agreements. None of the land claim groups across the Northwest Territories, nor I believe anybody else, like the deal. It was made in isolation through a previous government. It was made without the involvement of the aboriginal people.

I'm wondering if that agreement should now be scrapped. Most of the aboriginal governments are still working under 2004 funding arrangements. It's not a good policy. It's not fair to aboriginal people. In light of nation-to-nation, will you consider removing this policy that was drafted by a previous government and starting on a new one?

4:50 p.m.

Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treaties and Aboriginal Government, Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada

Joe Wild

We have to be clear about two things. We have launched a national dialogue. We met with representatives of 11 Yukon first nations earlier this week. We are looking toward launching a national dialogue with all 27 on how to move forward and develop together a new approach with regard to how we want the funding relationship to work. We are looking at trying to found that relationship on the basis of linking the fiscal relationship to achieving results. What I mean by that is looking at the fiscal relationship from the perspective of how we would move to work together to eliminate the socioeconomic gaps between indigenous and non-indigenous Canadians. In particular, my frame is within those that are under self-government.

Regardless of how we got to where we got, in terms of the policy that came out, the other point to make about it is the policy cannot—