Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 21st, 2016

[Françoise Ducros]

Yes.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

With respect to first nations and Inuit health, I know they're not part of your department. They're in Health. Strategically does it make sense for it to continue in a separate role, or is it important at some point we look at putting a holistic response to many of the challenges we see? I know oftentimes we have one department doing one thing, and you're looking at other stuff. Is it long overdue that we look at possibly putting them together?

[Françoise Ducros]

I think it's imperative the government works as a whole and horizontally, and that's not just health and indigenous affairs. ESDC deals with early childhood programming. I think we have to find better ways, either through programming, or approaches, or other ways to address those issues. Those are things that are being addressed very seriously with the current cabinet.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I know previous witnesses have identified the lack of coordination with different levels of government. For example, if it's special education, then it's with the provincial education systems. Oftentimes there appear to be conflicts. What specific measures are you taking to address those gaps? I know with the child welfare system, that's one of the major gaps we see. With special education, it's something we see time and time again. Is there a special emphasis now on working together in collaboration and cutting through some of the red tape that points fingers at each other, as opposed to coming up with a solution-based approach?

[Françoise Ducros]

That's an excellent point. I think there are multiple ways in which those things are being addressed. Some of them are through tripartite agreements around enhanced prevention for child services and programs with education. There's a commitment to work on the aboriginal working group for the federal-provincial engagement, and folks are very much engaged on that front right across programs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you, both.

We're moving to the five-minute questions now, and the first question is from Arnold Viersen.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

My area of questioning will be on the 94 recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I was wondering what the plan was for rolling those out. If you prioritize the recommendations, could you provide us with a list in priority?

[Françoise Ducros]

The minister has indicated that in order to address the 94 recommendations, we'd have to do so given all of the mandate letters of the cabinet ministers in full respect, recognition, and partnership with the indigenous communities and organizations. There are conversations taking place.

Some of the calls to action included the inquiry into missing and murdered aboriginal women. Some of it includes how do we engage on education? Others involve other aspects. There is a pretty broad engagement on some of these actions that have already been taken. There are various engagements across government that are out there. Just to name two, they are Parks Canada and Public Safety. It's a long-term process. There's definitely a view that as we engage in the TRC, we're also going to have to use the lens of section 35 to look at that and to address it.

That's currently what's happening on multiple fronts.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Is there one area where we can see what progress is being made on each of those individual recommendations? Is there one person dealing with them? Is there somebody accountable for it?

[Françoise Ducros]

There are various people accountable for different recommendations. The missing and murdered women's inquiry would be accountable, and that would be Status of Women and ourselves. On the investments around education, and looking at new approaches to education, that would be ourselves. There are other things that address health specifically, and Health Canada is addressing them.

In answer to your question as to how we need to communicate outwards, we are looking at how we engage and how we communicate in partnership with the indigenous peoples moving forward on that front.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Is there any cost analysis, particularly of the entire set of recommendations? Has it been done? Has somebody drawn them all together and said: to implement all 94 recommendations, this is what has to be done and this is what it's going to cost?

[Françoise Ducros]

There is no rolled-up cost analysis on the calls to action, because the way we address the calls to action will follow the broader engagement process. There's no place right now that you can go to. There are many actions being taken, and we're certainly conscious of the fact that we have to engage and get to addressing those recommendations. We have to do so, as others have said, in a nation-to-nation relationship, in partnership with our colleagues.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

How about some of the recommendations individually?

[Françoise Ducros]

Individually, for some of the recommendations—as I said, I picked missing and murdered women, but there are others as well, around looking at parks, looking at sport—people are engaging in how we are moving to implement them. The government is very committed to working in partnership, so it's hard to cost out something that would be a unilateral action moving forward.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I have 14 first nations in my riding; I've been in a lot of consultations—on land claims, traditional territory, these kinds of things. Have you done any study on third-party impacts of these land claims or how traditional territory deals are going to work out and how private land ownership plays into that?

[Joe Wild]

Generally speaking there are no direct impacts on private land ownership, in that land claims are settled through three main tools. The first is the provision of crown land, either federal or provincial, if it's available; the second is the provision of cash in substitution for providing land; and the third is that the cash enables the given indigenous nation to purchase land on a willing buyer/willing seller basis.

There's no direct impact, in that we don't expropriate or the government doesn't buy up land from third-party private individuals in order to then make it available.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

When a land claim deal has been settled, are taxation rights given with that land claim?

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Be brief. We're out of time.

[Joe Wild]

It's a complex answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

We have time for just two more five-minute questions, the first from Don Rusnak, and then from Cathy.

[Don Rusnak, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you for coming to appear before the committee today.

I have 10 first nations in my riding, and there are a number of first nations throughout northwestern Ontario. I've been hearing, from first nations over the years and from organizations—in fact, from an organization that I worked for—that dealing with INAC is often difficult: dealing with the department on contribution agreements, infrastructure funds, and the way programs are delivered. They essentially would rather deal with another department than deal with INAC.

Certain areas and systems within the department may be broken. Is there any work being done to look into the problems, and have you heard these problems stated by first nations? I imagine you have, because we sent in—back in 2007, I believe, when I was working for Grand Council Treaty #3—complaints about the way systems are done. It seems as though there are delays and unnecessary hurdles that first nations organizations or communities have to jump over that delay important projects or delay getting to the communities funding that is needed quickly.

[Françoise Ducros]

Yes, it would be disingenuous to say that we haven't heard concerns about how the department interacts with first nations and other indigenous communities. I think there's a lot of room for improvement.

Some of the areas the committee began with, on how we deal with contribution agreements, moving to better tools, and looking at stable and predictable funding, are things that folks are looking at. On the issue around clarity of roles and responsibility, the Auditor General in 2011 raised clarity of roles and responsibilities as well as predictable funding and certain ways of moving forward. These are things the department is looking at.

So yes, we've heard this, and we're attempting to do better.

I think the move, with the current government, to looking at the nation-to-nation relationship and getting into a broader framework and addressing some of the.... There's been a lot of work done through the TRC and other groups in the last few years, and many opinions have been placed on the table. The department is looking at how we get to a better relationship.

[Don Rusnak, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

We met with the Auditor General on Tuesday, and I spoke to his staff after the meeting. I didn't get time to ask a specific question. We were asking about some of the audits of the department over the years. I heard from communities while I worked in northern Manitoba and in mid-northern Manitoba, if you want to call it that, that there wasn't information available from the department to audit, so they couldn't do an audit on a program from the department.

Have you still been seeing those problems within the department? If so, what's the plan to deal with certain regions in which perhaps this problem still exists?

[Françoise Ducros]

I can't speak specifically, but there are reports on the programs. Whether or not we're asking the right questions to measure reports or to evaluate reports is certainly a valid question. We're going to have to look at improving that relationship and at how we deliver programs.

On the broader issue of audits of programming, I don't know that that's been an issue. I don't know if I understand your question.

[Don Rusnak, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

What I've been hearing and what I've seen over the years is that there's inconsistency across the country in terms of reporting within INAC. One of the examples is from an organization I worked with. When a new regime came in or a new leader came in, all of a sudden the department focused their eyes on the organization and cut their funding off because reporting hadn't been done for three years. If that reporting hadn't been done for three years under the previous regime, why were they still getting funding? I see certain problems with systems within your department. What's being done to address those problems?