Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 21st, 2016

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

The number of funded students who get post-secondary: “Incremental increase year after year”.

I was a school board trustee. You know, people get fired if they come to the school board without performance indicators. You have to know that you have student success; otherwise we're failing.

I don't know why you don't have that. I'm looking at the 2004 Auditor General report, which said there was absolute failure on the issues of education, and in 2011 nothing had improved. If you're going to go to incremental increases, surely to God you must be able to provide us with something. I look forward to hearing from you on that. How else will we get success in this area?

I notice that the 2% cap has come off. That's certainly of great benefit, but under the new post-secondary money in the federal budget there doesn't seem to be any increase. Is the cap still on with post-secondary?

[Paul Thoppil, Chief Financial Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Budget 2016 provided significant monies for indigenous peoples, to the tune of $8.4 billion over five years. When you look at that amount of money over that period of time, in conjunction with.... That comes up to 22% over that period of time, vis-à-vis....

So that is definitely an increase on the 2% escalator in comparison over that same period of time.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I guess I didn't add up the math the same way. But I'm running out of time here, so we'll have to move on.

This is certainly a big issue with the coming murdered and missing women inquiry. I saw in your performance and priorities report, under performance indicators for “Number of women and children accessing INAC-funded shelters”, that the target says “N/A”, not applicable. It says it's because setting a target for this indicator is “not appropriate”.

You had a target for it last year. Why is it suddenly not appropriate anymore to be able to actually know if people are able to use the service?

[Françoise Ducros]

I'll have to confirm this and get back to you, but I think part of that was working out the best way to get to a better indicator in terms of access to shelters, what percentage of first nations communities have access to shelters, and how to address it in moving forward and working with the provinces and territories. But I can provide further explanation to the committee.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

Do I still have a bit of time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

You have more than a minute.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

In the Thunder Bay inquiry of the seven young people who died, which has just been heartbreaking, the Indigenous Affairs witness said that there was no funding gap between the provincial and federal systems. That certainly shocked a lot of people.

Is he correct? Is that the view of INAC, that there is no funding gap between what students receive on reserve and in the provincial system?

[Françoise Ducros]

I think the minister pronounced at committee that significant investments would have to be made in that area. I can't speak to the particular testimony of the witness there.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

This is about whether or not young people had to leave home because they had no school, and then died in Thunder Bay. Indigenous Affairs' position at the inquest was that there is no gap in funding. That was a position taken under this new government. Is that Indigenous Affairs' position, yes or not?

[Françoise Ducros]

I will have to go back to the testimony before I comment on what was said.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Thank you.

The next question is from Gary Anandasangaree.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Thank you, all, for coming here. I can appreciate the level of frustration you perhaps have, being in your respective roles.

I want to take you out of your roles for a minute. From a humanitarian perspective, simply as individuals, what is the one thing you would change within your department that would have a significant impact on the whole system?

I would like to canvas everyone here, because you are all senior management. Maybe you can tell us very briefly, in 30 seconds.

[Françoise Ducros]

I am a loyal public servant at the service of my minister, and I am here to implement the direction they give us, so I feel a little at odds answering that question.

I don't know whether my colleagues want to....

[Paul Thoppil]

I would support my colleague's response. I do believe that the government direction, in terms of providing predictable, stable funding in particular areas such as infrastructure, would be very helpful in order to address the socio-economic gaps. That is something this department is working on, in consultations with first nations and indigenous peoples, in order to arrive at that outcome.

[Joe Wild]

The only thing I would add is that it is important that all Canadians be educated with respect to our history and the role of indigenous peoples within Canada. That probably would be the number one thing that would make all of our jobs easier.

[Serge Beaudoin, Director General, Sector Operations Branch, Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Thank you.

I have nothing to add to what my colleagues have shared.

[Stephen Van Dine]

I would agree with my colleagues and add that, regardless of which government is installed, it comes down to the people I get to work with, and making sure they have the tools and the abilities to fulfill their jobs effectively. It is my responsibility to make sure they have that.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Maybe we can get into the type of people you work with. You represent a very significant population, I think 1.4 million and probably growing. How reflective is the organization with respect to the various indigenous communities? What are the areas that we need to improve in terms of senior management? How reflective is that with respect to our indigenous populations, and what kinds of targets and expectations can we see in the short term and long term?

[Françoise Ducros]

Are you speaking specifically to the human resource component?

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Yes.

[Françoise Ducros]

At this point in time, there are policies in place in the department in the areas of recruitment, retention, and development with indigenous Canadians, and we are trying to ensure that the institution reflects it. I believe the numbers right now are anywhere from 24% to 31%, with a much higher percentage in the regions.

There are several policies and active recruitment programs in place, including development programs, one of which I have the honour to champion, the aboriginal leadership development initiative.

More and more in the Government of Canada, throughout various departments, there are champions for indigenous recruitment, retention, and promotion. There are various things that we need to continue to address, including the issues of education and awareness throughout the public service. I think there is a real will to do that.

My colleague Joe Wild and I are working with the Canada School to deal with that. More and more we have to look at how we get out there and recruit, how we hear what it takes to make both Indigenous Affairs and the government writ large a good place to work, and how we ensure that the capacities we are building in communities and in the government work together to provide synergies.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

How are we on senior staff?

[Françoise Ducros]

I don't know the answer to that on senior staff. I think we can certainly provide that. There is an ebb and flow on senior staff. We can provide the exact numbers, unless you have them at hand.

Some of the things we've looked at, as we move up and down in numbers, are things happening with senior staff people moving on to other positions, including a former ADM who is now the associate deputy minister at public safety. There's a good story to tell. I don't think it's good enough, but people are endeavouring to address it.

It has to be a government-wide approach and not something that's restricted to the department.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I completely agree. I do think the department does have a particular need.