Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 3rd, 2016

[Ry Moran]

That's correct. We do have unredacted versions. All of the document production that happened for the TRC was in unredacted form, which truthfully, places a lot of responsibility on us, again, to manage that highly sensitive personal information. We needed unredacted documents so we could understand the truth and so we could help survivors, and everything like that.

We are still challenged, though, as we go through our startup, and as we build capacity, and as we get staffed up. I would love to be helping those survivors from St. Anne's in their quest for justice. We are, at once, so concerned about privacy that we're worried about missteps, but at the same time there's a question about whether or not we're missing opportunities to really contribute to the overall justice and healing that really need to take place in the country.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you for that.

I am concerned about the destruction of the documents, because I hear from people all the time now about their cases being thrown out on technicalities. I worry that if the evidence isn't there, they're not going to be able to appeal.

With regard to the destruction of IAP documents, would you classify under those the historical records and the school narratives? What about departmental briefings or notes to the minister? Are those classified as IAP documents? Where do we draw the line here?

[Ry Moran]

The issue that's in front of the courts right now has narrowed the question around IAP document preservation for the purposes of the historical record to three general categories of records: survivor statements/transcripts, applications, and then adjudicators' decisions. There are a whole series of records that aren't included in that, and there are a variety of reasons, which I won't go into full detail on here right now.

I don't have direct confirmation of this, but one would hope that the standard multi-institutional disposition authorities that apply to government agencies from Library and Archives Canada would ensure that all of those briefings and the corporate records of the IAP secretariat would be preserved, as any other government record.

That was the same with the TRC. We had to preserve our corporate records as well.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. You're saying, for example, that ministerial briefing notes would not be something that they could claim has to be protected and then destroyed?

[Ry Moran]

It should not be...under this decision.... That should be a different sort of line of preservation, and should fall under standard government record-keeping process and procedure.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I want to ask about the administrative split, where we've had 1,000 cases thrown out. In the case of the Fort George Anglican school in Chisasibi, very much like St. Anne's, the government obtained new documents over what was termed...when it was an Indian residential school, but that information was not turned over to claimants, so their rights to proper hearings were denied.

I understand that Indigenous Affairs officials have recently told the IAP oversight committee that they've turned over those documents already, a long time ago. Have you received updated narratives of what happened at the Fort George Anglican school in Chisasibi?

[Ry Moran]

We have not received updated school narratives in recent production, no.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. Thank you very much.

You have said that the federal government has been silent on this appeal to the Supreme Court about protecting the documents. Now, I recognize the importance of the privacy, and I think you've talked about it as a sacred trust. This is something that we all are deeply concerned with, but can you explain to me your concern about the destruction of these records and what it will mean for being able to maintain some kind of ability in the future to find out whether justice was actually served under the IAP hearings? There are some people who may have been railroaded.

[Ry Moran]

I think that is a fundamental question. One, we have to think about things just in the basic public interest. The IAP process has been a massive disbursement of public funds, and it has been a massive process of justice and alternate dispute resolution that's happened in this country. That, in and of itself, should warrant scrutiny in the future, period, both domestically and internationally. Because the cold hard reality is that we won't be the only country that faces these mass human rights violations, and there's much to be learned just in the administration of the process.

Beyond that, though, the IAP records, while incredibly sensitive—and while survivor concerns around that sensitivity can and must be respected with the highest levels of respect—provide a window into the residential schools that no other set of records can do. It is the record of abuse. Anything that I've heard from survivors in that record of abuse is absolutely harrowing. We don't actually fully understand, I believe, as a society, how bad it was in the schools.

Here's the scenario that happens right now. Under this particular decision, the records will be preserved for 15 years, while a notice program goes out and asks survivors whether or not they want to opt into preservation. That's a pretty high test, truthfully, because you have to track people, you have to get hold of them, you have to talk to them, and you have to convince them. As well, survivors are spread across the country. Many of them live in remote areas. There are language barriers. Also, survivors are aging rapidly.

What's going to happen is that these records are going to get held for the better part of 15 years, which takes us to around 2031-32. That's the date. They will have been held. Nothing will have gone wrong with the records. They will have sat silent on some computer server somewhere, perhaps at the centre, perhaps at the IAP secretariat, and somebody is going to have to walk up and hit “delete” on that entire set of records.

I've thought about what that day looks like, and I would challenge all of us to think about whether or not, as parliamentarians or advocates for indigenous people, you would want to be the one making the speech on that day. I know that I would be extraordinarily conflicted about what kind of speech I would make on that day. Would I say that it was justice served?

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

We need to finish up. I'm sorry.

[Ry Moran]

Yes, sorry, but that's the scenario we're looking at.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Don Rusnak, please.

[Don Rusnak, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Being an alumnus of the University of Manitoba, I'm happy to see that the records are there at a great university. I know the building. It's just a great place to be. Especially with the Canadian Museum for Human Rights being in Winnipeg, I can see collaboration there.

That's my first question. Has there been any collaboration with the Canadian Museum for Human Rights? Have there been any discussions? If there have been, or if there haven't been, what do you see as the plan moving forward in working with organizations such as that museum?

[Ry Moran]

Thank you. That's a great question.

That is one of the truly great gifts that we have in being located in Winnipeg. We have some fantastic organizations there, such as the museum. We enjoy a very close and healthy working relationship with the museum. We've collaborated on a number of initiatives so far, including the display of the Bentwood box, which, although in our collection, sits at the museum. We've provided them a number of video files from the centre's collection, and we are partnering on the Pathways to Reconciliation conference and a whole series of education initiatives that focus on bringing students through the centre and through the museum.

That museum is very similar to the process we're working on with the Canadian Museum of History as well, in getting these survivor statements and materials into public spaces so that people can learn and understand. This history is what we have been asked to do and is what the country has been asked to do.

These types of partnerships are extraordinarily exciting for us. The more we can do them and the more we can work in close partnership and collaboration, the better and stronger we all are collectively.

[Don Rusnak, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I am a little unclear in terms of your funding right now. Is your funding coming partly from the Government of Canada and partly from the settlement?

[Ry Moran]

Up to this point, our funding has come from four primary revenue streams. We had some surplus funds from the TRC, but of course that has dried up, because the TRC has now disappeared.

We have some core funding from the University of Manitoba, and I really have to acknowledge the contributions by the University of Manitoba, because they have stepped up to the plate in the absence of any other funding. So real, sincere kudos to them. This has been a big project for them to take on.

Then, we have had some funding from the Government of Canada that came through an announcement last year by the then Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, Minister Valcourt, which was then topped up with some year-end money at the end of this year.

We have been successful now in starting to raise some other money as well. The Province of Manitoba has contributed some funds, and we have been successful in bringing some corporate money into the centre.

All of this means, though, that aside from the core funding from the university, right now we don't have a lot of cheques coming down the line that we can take to the bank. That remains a concern for us.

[Don Rusnak, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Have you essentially started up right now, or are there still capital expenses and other expenses? You said you are still staffing up, so I would imagine there is still work to do in terms of start-up and what needs to be done. How much do you need essentially to get to where you need to be?

[Ry Moran]

There are the core activities of the centre, and then there are the additional activities of the centre. By the middle of this year we are going to have in place the core staff that we need. It is essential that we have attracted quality staff, and we are just filling in the last number of positions.

That gets us going at the core operations level. Then there is all the other work that we need to do as well, and that is where we need to have some serious conversations with a variety of partners and a variety of agencies, the least of which is the Government of Canada, to really sit down and plan out what this framework for reconciliation looks like and how we, collectively, are going to deliver on these calls to action that have been given to all of us.

We are continuing to build. We are moving out of the start-up phase, and it is all heading in the right direction.

[Don Rusnak, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I imagine the governing circle has been involved in terms of the direction that the centre is going in right now. How has the governing circle been engaging with first nations communities, Métis communities, Inuit communities, and other indigenous communities across the country right now?

[Dr. Cynthia Wesley-Esquimaux]

We have different people on that circle who have different skill sets, obviously. We have been looking at the ethical standards and, certainly, we are looking at the documentation, how it might be released, and what we would be setting up over the course of time.

The people on the governing circle have responsibilities in their own home communities as well. The expectation is that we would do a lot of that community outreach, and that has been happening.

We have been bringing people into that circle ourselves and ensuring that it is moving forward. I am an honorary witness on the governing circle. There are at least a hundred honorary witnesses across the [Inaudible—Editor]. That is also our responsibility, to ensure that they are engaged in the work of reconciliation. Our job is not only to be there for Ry, to advise him, and to work along with him, but also to talk about where we need to go next, what kind of services we should put in place immediately, and how we can keep this alive on the street. How do we get people to continue to pay attention to the reconciliation process forward?

[Don Rusnak, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I am a little unclear as to the structure of the governing circle. I understand there is an individual member from the Métis community, from the first nations community, and from the Inuit community. Then you mentioned survivors. Do they have an involvement in that governing circle? How many people are in that group, and how are they chosen, if they do actually have input?

[Ry Moran]

We are very fortunate right now, in the sense that the majority of the circle are indigenous people. We have a mixed blend of survivors, intergenerational survivors, and day-school survivors, which is critical in this whole conversation.

This was again a national call for submissions, and a number of our partners—I think we had a 13-person selection committee that included representatives from our partners: the National Association of Friendship Centres, AFN, Métis National Council, all of those—participated in the selection of this initial governing council. As the initial governing circle, it has had to work quite hard, because as we build it, as we explore these questions and conversations, it also means we need a lot of good dialogue and advice from trusted people around us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

We're going to move into a round of five-minute questions. These will move a little more quickly. The first question is from Arnold Viersen, please.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. It's fascinating to listen to the great work that you're doing.

I was wondering about templates perhaps. Are you aware of anybody else in the world that's doing something similar to what you're doing?

[Ry Moran]

There are certainly some parallels down in Australia. They had a process that ran there. Of course, they're a colonial society, a member of the Commonwealth wrestling with a number of the same issues that we wrestle with here in this country.

They had a council for reconciliation that ran for a number of years and that was very analogous to our TRC, and then they created an agency called Reconciliation Australia, which works on monitoring reconciliation. They issue an annual state of reconciliation report in the country. They also issue a reconciliation barometer that tracks public perceptions and relationships between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples, in addition to working very heavily with the corporate sector on reconciliation action plans, which is actually quite an interesting model.

There are other agencies elsewhere in the world that do work on sites of memory and also on monitoring the status of reconciliation. In South Africa there's a dedicated research team that runs the South African Reconciliation Barometer. They've been running that for about 20 years, a consistent, baseline data on the relationship that is happening in South Africa. We've studied that heavily.

There were similar efforts under way in Rwanda on reconciliation. More broadly though, of course, as a site of memory, as a centre of memory, as a national commemorative institute as well, there are some really interesting organizations out there, like the Shoah Foundation, which is in partnership with UC Berkeley down in California, that holds a very large number of survivor statements from Holocaust survivors, actually.

We studied them and met with them very intensely when we were thinking about where the centre should be parked, and explored that relationship between a university and a centre in the development of our plan.