Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 19th, 2019

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mary-Luisa, I love the idea of this program that you have set up on site for land surveyors. Are there any other areas that you have identified where a similar type of approach can be taken with regard to a different skill set locally, directly? As we know, in the natural resources sector, there's a huge opportunity in many indigenous communities, but a lot of them, once again, don't want to travel outside of their communities to get the training.

[Mary-Luisa Kapelus]

I'll let John start with the forestry sector.

[John Kozij, Director General, Trade, Economics and Industry Branch, Canadian Forest Service, Department of Natural Resources]

Thank you for the question.

Maybe I could focus on what we're doing in the off-diesel space. Under our clean energy for rural and remote communities, there's a $220-million program over five years that has been created to really address our Paris climate change targets. Embedded in that program is a capacity stream. We understood that, if we're going to embark upon a set of initiatives to reduce diesel use in communities, it's going to take some time. We'd be establishing relationships with communities, and we needed a capacity stream that looked at that front-end piece of moving communities into clean, renewable projects.

In the area of biomass, which I'm more familiar with, we've often talked about how there could be a 10- or 12-step program to move to biomass for heat or power generation. That's because you're talking about the front end, understanding how to do forestry management; training people in forestry operations; looking at the types of systems you can use and whether or not you're just going to use them for heat or power, combined heat and power; and then looking at host capital installation, the capacity of the people to be able to run those facilities over time. In terms of that whole gamut of activities, from the front end to the back end, we have to have capacity right through.

In addition, we've just announced the challenge-based program, where we're working with the Indigenous Clean Energy Network to build on their 20/20 catalysts program to build a series of clean energy community champions in a number of different first nations, primarily, but also in Métis communities across Canada, so that they can go back to their communities, develop clean energy plans and come back to us with funding proposals to be able to proceed forward.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

To stick with forestry, you mentioned the regional forestry offices. Once again, are you doing capacity-building there so that they're 100% indigenous-led and managed, managing their own indigenous forests on their own lands?

[John Kozij]

I'm responsible for two programs. One is the indigenous forestry initiative, and also the biomass piece of the CERRC program. The Canadian Forest Service has five regional centres. We've empowered those centres and built the capacity to have a regional liaison office service that works with communities to develop proposals to come to us for the indigenous forestry initiative, which is primarily around enabling indigenous people to enter the forest industry or create indigenous businesses in the forest industry. The other side is around coming forward with clean energy, biomass-based solutions to our program.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I've visited Haida Gwaii, and I see the tremendous difference it made when they took over the forestry in the late 1980s. That was the catalyst that has completely transformed that community to be more self-sustaining, I think, than most other indigenous communities out there.

[John Kozij]

Haida Gwaii is a very interesting example where the province and that first nation worked together collectively to build, manage and develop the forest industry. It is a model for other regions.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

You have about 30 seconds.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay, good.

On the move away from diesel, once again, that capacity-building you're trying to do at the same time, how far have you progressed on that? Have you been able to move any communities off of diesel yet? Are any communities managing that process 100% indigenous-led right now?

[John Kozij]

We just launched the program. We rolled out some of our first projects in Gitxsan in the fall. In that circumstance, it was putting a boiler system on an arena, and now they have more ambitious plans.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Also, is this the first time this has been, once again, attempted in this way, local training and capacity-building like this?

[John Kozij]

We partnered with ISC prior to launching the CERRC program on the biomass side. We had a biomass north program, and then we also developed a biomass program, what we call south of 60°. It has a range of activities. We've done fuel stove switching to more efficient stoves, which has had remarkable outcomes in terms of reducing biomass consumption, as well as reducing particulates in the air, which is important. We built this program off of a record that we had both in biomass north and biomass south that intimately links capacity-building with our development program.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

MP Kevin Waugh.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Sunday, I was in Yellowknife. Forty semis were loading diesel to go to the mines for the diamonds. It's all diesel. With a winter road, they have two to three months to get the product into them so they can continue throughout the year. You talk about diesel in the north. How far are we from not needing diesel? They have a hydro system there that costs $1.2 billion to build and yet you talk $220 million, which is really not a lot of money. I spent three days in Yellowknife, and they are absolutely 100% dependent on diesel.

[John Kozij]

Yellowknife is a very interesting community. If you ever have an opportunity to do a tour in Yellowknife, you'll find a number of biomass boilers attached to various public buildings, not unlike what you'd see in communities in P.E.I. There are opportunities to have renewable solutions in even those communities that we think can't do that fuel switching.

In our biomass program, our emphasis has been on helping indigenous communities get off diesel. There are obviously a number of opportunities to move off diesel in those commercial circumstances, but our emphasis has been moving those indigenous communities off diesel because of the tremendous co-benefits that go with that, the reduction in hydrocarbons in their communities.

Prior to coming to NRCan four years ago, I worked in the lands and economic development services program. I was responsible for the federal contaminated sites program on reserve. The number one federal contaminated site on reserve, as you probably know, is failing fuel tank farms. It's not the dumps. The more we can get communities off diesel, the greater the co-benefits in—

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Why does nobody talk about nuclear reactors?

I was in Nunavut last year. I was in Yellowknife this year.

[John Kozij]

It's not my field but I'd be happy to get back to you on that.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Isn't that clean? Isn't it the cleanest?

I come from a city that has chemicals, the head office of the biggest uranium miner in the world. We never talk about that. Yet 660 indigenous people in northern Saskatchewan are out of a job because we have shut that down.

Ms. Ferland, I see you have 10-year grants. To date, how many eligible first nations have applied because they have until April 1?

[Claudia Ferland]

Keith, do you have the answer?

I'll invite my colleague Lynne Newman who would have that answer.

[Keith Conn]

Come on down, Lynne.

[Lynne Newman, Director General, Fiscal Arrangements, Chief Finances, Results and Delivery Officer Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

There are 10-year grants with the new fiscal relationship. There was a call-out to all 600 first nations last spring; 250 first nations have expressed interest in the 10-year grant. We are now finalizing assessments of eligibility with our co-development partners at the First Nations Financial Management Board and finalizing recommendations to the ministers. We hope we will have final numbers quite soon.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

How will you support them with capacity? That's what this report is all about. About 40% out of the 600 are interested.

[Lynne Newman]

A couple of programs are available through the P&ID, and through others as well. I'm probably not using the right term, but the ambition or the idea of the 10-year grant is to allow first nations to deliver programs the way they desire to do that.

The capacity programs they will have available through the department are through what we call P&ID, for instance. There will also be ongoing support through various capacity development providers, the First Nations Financial Management Board being one, and others as well. But certainly, the department's objective is to support them as much as possible through capacity development.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

If they miss the April 1 deadline, can they still go in?

[Lynne Newman]

Absolutely, this is the first year. We will see how this year goes. Many first nations will see how it goes, I suppose. We anticipate that going into year two, they will express interest; this is the beginning of an on-going process. The offer will be going each year.