Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 7th, 2019

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Do you have any other comments about this bill? It sounds as if all our witnesses in this panel are saying that it's a thumbs-up and a step in the right direction, but there are going to be challenges as we move forward. Does that summarize it? I'll ask both witnesses that question.

[Raven McCallum]

I think there are certain aspects that are challenging, and I think that making these changes would never...there's no way that it would ever be easy. It's a very complicated issue, and given that there are so many nations in this country, it's going to look different for a lot of people.

I think managing all of that is going to be complicated regardless of what is in the bill. I think it's really just going to be about continued conversations.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Perhaps I could ask our other witnesses if they have comments on any of the questions I've asked Raven McCallum.

Do you have any comments that you want to add to what I've asked her?

[Viviane Michel]

Once again, I'll talk about funding.

Bill C-92 doesn't mention funding or a commitment to remedy children's situation. If we want our children to grow up properly, we must give them a sense of belonging to the community, to the language, to the culture, and to life in the community, because we form a single whole. As such, we can't take a child, remove it from its environment, and place it outside the context of its identity, because the identity process is comprehensive.

If we want the child to grow up properly with all the values I've just mentioned, I think that funding is necessary to give youth access to language learning, because an increasing number of young people are searching for their identity or going through an identity crisis. Problems can be dealt with later, but, once again, there's no mention of funding in Bill C-92.

If you want us to sort out that situation, let's do it correctly. You will have to consider adequate funding.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

The questioning now moves to MP Rachel Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all of you so much for being here today.

One of the concerns that's come up repeatedly in the testimony—and it's going to be good, because it's asking about funding—is that in looking at the reality that this is a framework piece of legislation, one of the things missing from it is the principles of funding. Instead of asking for a dollar amount to be attached to the legislation, it's about asking for clear principles in the legislation that will be holding all of us in this place to account.

We had testimony from Cindy Blackstock, who said that, really, the best principles would be the ones that came from the Human Rights Tribunal decision, and to just put that in the legislation. There's also other testimony that talks about what's in the preamble and says to move it from the preamble and put it into the legislation. I would ask all of you what your thoughts are on having the principles of funding actually right in the legislation.

Perhaps I will start with you here, and then I'll go to Victoria.

[Viviane Michel]

I should like to remind you that Article 21 of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which was ratified by Canada, concerns implementation.

This document was made in the image of First Nations and is based on their vision. It really sheds lights on all aspects: health, education, and existential issues. I think a veritable truth emerges from the Declaration. So, Canada has made a commitment, but has yet to proceed with implementation.

This is 2019. I believe the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples is either 10 or 11 years old, and what have we done?

I put the question to you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

Raven.

[Raven McCallum]

Sorry, could you ask the question again?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

This is framework legislation, and in the legislation there's nothing that has any principles of funding. It's been mentioned before that the funding is not really in the legislation. There are some principles to the funding in the preamble, which is not part of the legislation. Then, of course, there's the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal on indigenous children in care, and it has some clear principles put forth by that group.

Should we have principles within the legislation that hold the government to account to make sure that indigenous children across this country get fair and equitable funding?

[Raven McCallum]

I think that funding needs to be in place for communities to be able to provide the same level of service as provincial governments or DAAs do, because otherwise it's creating imbalances. Communities simply don't have that same level of funding.

I do think it should be something that is reflected in this bill.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Raven, you spoke a lot about young people who are from more than one indigenous community and the challenge of making sure they get connected to their identity and those multiple communities. I think that is going to be a challenge going forward.

I'm wondering if you have any recommendations. Should all the communities that helped to create who you are, or create an indigenous child, be notified if the child is about to go into care or is in care, so that they can continue to build some of those relationships?

[Raven McCallum]

I think that all nations should be notified. I think they should all be able to have access to the information, and they should be able to communicate with each other. They should have that ability.

This notion of only one community being notified or only one community being aware...in my mind, it would probably be based on status. I don't think that is an indigenous way of looking at things. I think that's kind of a western way that's been determined by the federal government. I don't see that as fair, to be honest.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I only have a few minutes left and I'd like to ask both of you this question.

I think the issue of identity is really important here. For example, in my community, when I go home, people ask “Who are you?” I say who my grandmother is, and then they say, “Oh, I knew your great-uncle.” There's that sense of community and relation. Even when you're new or you've been away for a long time, there's always a way to figure out who you are. I think that sense of community and belonging is really important.

Does this legislation encompass that idea of identity, of knowing that when you go home, people are always there to find you?

I don't know who wants to go first.

Raven, should I start with you?

[Raven McCallum]

Are you talking about identity?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Yes.

[Raven McCallum]

I think that identity is really important and it is a complex issue.

I don't think that anyone should be trying to determine what that is for an individual. I don't think that is government's place. I think that's up to the indigenous community and the child. The child usually knows who they are, and if they don't, it's because of the history that exists.

I think most people end up wanting to know where they are. A lot of people become adults and they're in a constant search for their identity, and that's a really terrible place to be. If people can connect with all aspects of who they are, then they will have a stronger sense of community. They'll know that they are loved, and they'll have a lot more support throughout their entire life.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

Is there anything you'd like to add?

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

It has to be very short. We only have 30 seconds.

[Viviane Michel]

It will be very, very short.

I was born from the union of two cultures. My father is a Quebecker and my mother is Innu. I am a member of the Innu Nation. I grew up with my people. I've had that privilege. I speak my language, I know my culture. My people recognize me as an Innu woman.

There are other people who have not enjoyed the same privilege and have not had contact with a community. That's because we've experienced a type of colonialism and we've inherited the Indian Act. When we leave the community, we no longer have access to community services.

This has had an impact. Assimilation is part of our heritage. We should put an end to this form of colonialism and this history of assimilation, and move forward. We must recognize that children need health and education, as well as a sense of belonging, both within and outside a community.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you very much for participating. We really appreciate it. Your words will be part of the official record for the committee and all Canadians to read. Thank you very much. Meegwetch.

We'll suspend for a couple of minutes and then bring together our final panel of four presenters.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

The committee is now back in session.

I want to welcome you to the indigenous and northern affairs standing committee of Parliament. We are addressing the status and future of indigenous children in Canada, something which statistics and what we've heard in the hearings indicate we have failed to do. Bill C-92 attempts to address some of these issues. This is very important work, and we're glad you're here with us.

We're glad to see you, Mr. Hogg. We are anxious to hear your words on the constitutional aspects of this bill.

A total of 10 minutes is allowed per presentation, but if you take less, it allows for more questions and interaction from the MPs. I will indicate when you're getting close to your maximum allowable time. Each presenter will have up to 10 minutes, and then we will go to questions.

We'll begin with Saskatchewan. In front of us we have Chief Mark Arcand from the Saskatoon Tribal Council.

[Chief Mark Arcand, Tribal Chief, Saskatoon Tribal Council]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning.

[Witness spoke in Cree as follows:]

ᑖᐣᓯ ᓇᓇᐢᑲᒧᐣ ᑲᐦᑭᔭᐤ ᐯ ᑕᑯᓯᓇᕽ ᐆᑕ

[Cree text translated as follows:]

Hello, I thank you all for gathering here on the territory of the Algonquin people.

[English]

It's a pleasure to be here today. The reason I'm here is to show support for Bill C-92. The reason we're doing that at the Saskatoon Tribal Council is to put our children first and foremost. Children have to be the primary reason this bill is passed. When we look at the situations that occurred with the Saskatoon Tribal Council and some of the history—MPs sitting around the table will know what happened in Saskatchewan—we understand that the Saskatoon Tribal Council has done something historic with Premier Scott Moe and the provincial government.

In June 2016, the Saskatoon Tribal Council lost its delegation authority and the ability to take care of its children. If we back up one step, we know about the residential school era, about the sixties scoop and all the things that have affected our people.

What the Saskatoon Tribal Council has done since June 2016 is sit down with Minister Paul Merriman, who I believe is doing good work in Saskatchewan, and members of the cabinet of Saskatchewan to work together to make a difference in our children's lives.

I can say this because, when I was elected in October 2017, I sat down and had a coffee with Minister Paul Merriman to talk about our situation. Eighteen months later, we've created one of the historic agreements in Saskatchewan, what I call “knocking down a brick wall” with the provincial government and creating a reconciliation agreement for child and family services for our children, which gives us the jurisdiction to get our children home.

That jurisdiction is not going to happen tomorrow. It's a process that happens anywhere from tomorrow to three to five years at the community's pace. However, it's a partnership and we're working together. It's a collaboration. We've set up some forums for leaders, which means me and our chiefs. We'll sit with the ministers and talk about how we can improve the situation. The second piece is the technical working group that allows our technicians to do the work and make sure there's an opportunity for our children to be safe.

I have to emphasize that the nation-to-nation relationship, the government-to-government relationship with the province and the chiefs I represent—they're the ones who signed the delegation agreement for the safety and well-being of our kids—is the most important piece of all because these people are the stakeholders for the children. It contains their views. I'm the voice of our leaders. I come here today to ensure that Bill C-92 moves forward in those directions because it's imperative that we break a cycle that has not been favourable to first nations children in our province.

In Saskatchewan, we have probably the second-most number of cases of children in care. I'm going to brag about our relationship with the province because it's important. People need to understand that we are working together for what's best for our children. Other first nations could be upset with us, or some could be supportive, and that's okay; that's their opinion. Our opinion is we have to build partnerships and relationships, as we've done with the federal and provincial governments. To us, it's meaningful because it's building bridges. We have to work together. In order to do that, Bill C-92, in clause 20, gives us the ability to call everybody together to emphasize what we're doing for children.

I'll give you an example. In Saskatoon the Saskatoon Tribal Council currently works closely with the province. We run six homes for the Ministry of Social Services. Currently, three kids out of the 45 kids in those homes are from my tribal council. We take care of other kids. We follow every rule, every regulation. We meet or exceed all the provincial government's expectations in running those homes.

The Saskatoon Tribal Council and our chiefs are accountable and transparent. We're doing what's best for the children. Finally, we have the opportunity to take care of our own children.

Currently we have 300 kids in care within the province from my tribal council. We have a plan to repatriate those kids. We plan to bring in another 10 homes and follow all of the rules and regulations of the province but also apply our rules and regulations from our nations. It's working together and respecting those rules and regulations that lead us to jurisdiction of our kids.

The second piece is, when we look at this whole process, I really have to give credit to Premier Scott Moe, Minister Paul Merriman, and the cabinet of Saskatchewan for taking a chance on the Saskatoon Tribal Council and building that relationship and that partnership with us. It's not too favourable in our province, but at the same time, if we don't sit across the table like this and talk about it, we're not going to get things done.

We all have to work together. It doesn't matter who the kids are or where they come from. It's about the safety of those children, because when you look at the youth justice system in our province, 90% plus of boys and girls who are incarcerated are first nations children, 90%. That in turn leads to the correctional centre. I'm working in the correctional centre right now with first nations men to better their lives so they can go home and take care of their children, because it's leading to broken families, and then the children end up in a system that's not favourable, and they lose their culture, their language and their identity.

As leaders, we have to stand up and do what's best for those people. We have to fight for them to make sure we're making a difference and providing every opportunity to change their lives. Again, I'm not just working with first nations people. It doesn't matter what race you are, how old you are, what colour you are or where you come from; it's about people.

Remember this analogy. When children are at a playground, they don't know race, they don't know colour and they don't know age. They play and they have fun. It's the same process here. We all have to work together to make sure that we make a difference in people's lives.

I'd rather sit in a meeting like this and work together instead of pointing fingers in the media and saying, “Something's wrong. We need to do things differently.” We need to sit down like adults and show our young people that we can make a difference for people.

That's the most important thing to me, because when we look at the direction of our leadership, it's to come here to build partnerships and to build relationships. All of the programs and services that we do in the city of Saskatoon.... We have 90 plus organizations that are part of Reconciliation Saskatoon that are knocking down barriers of racism and knocking down barriers of poverty and neglect for first nations children. That's the most meaningful part of why we're doing what we're doing.

I want to make it very clear that today is not about me as the tribal chief; it's about the children who we serve. It has to be what's best for the children who need to be brought home to their families. I'll give you an example: I was born in January 1971. Six months into my life, my mother gave me to my great-grandparents. There was never a certificate on the wall that said I had to follow a system or that my mom had to follow a system to give me to my great-grandparents. That's what we call kinship. We've lost that.

A system that has been imposed on us has to be changed, and Bill C-92 helps that system change. Is it going to be perfect? Show me any bill that's perfect. I don't see any bill that's perfect. We can always amend and make things better.

When we talk about these kinds of issues and moving forward, I really want to focus on how we can really work together. The important thing that I want to say today, over and over again, is that it's about building relationships and building partnerships, but understanding that we, as first nations people, have the inherent and treaty right to take care of our children. It was never given up.

I look back at the situations that occurred back in the day. When a child is taken now, we hear about amber alerts. Where was the amber alert when our kids were picked up from our first nation and put in the back of a truck to be taken to a residential school? We have an ability to change that, and I'm here today, not to come to you with a problem, but to come here with solutions. Based on what we've done with our work in Saskatchewan, we're moving mountains with solutions. It's very important that we all work together as federal and provincial governments to make that happen for all children.

To talk about how many kids we've saved, since I've signed my agreement, I've kept three kids from being adopted, and seven are going to be repatriated back to their community. Those are the numbers I want to talk about.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

We are now moving to the Office of the Wet'suwet'en, with Chief Dora Wilson and Heredity Chief Ronald Mitchell.

Please start whenever you would like.

[Ronald Mitchell, Hereditary Chief, Office of the Wet'suwet'en]

[Witness spoke in Wet'suwet'en as follows:]

Dinee Zeh’, Tsak’iy Zeh’, Skiy Zeh’. Niwh na cowlh ya gain unee niwh doo-nih’. Skak habayeztalhdic.

[Wet'suwet'en text translated as follows:]

Chiefs, Matriarch, Children of the Chiefs and Matriarch. I am thankful you ask us to come here. We are all here to talk about the children.

[English]

I want to thank the first nations whose land we're on for allowing us to speak of our children.

Canada must honour the commitments made specifically for our children regarding child welfare jurisdiction in the MOU that was ratified in our feast hall on October 2018 in Moricetown. Conflict with the existing agreement means that the MOU prevails.

Wet'suwet'en engagement and participation in changes to provincial and federal legislation could impact the work contemplated under the MOU. Bureaucrats and lawyers will interpret narrowly, and need us to ensure broad holistic interpretation through Wet'suwet'en engagement and participation on policy, practice and regulations implementation after the bill is passed. On the whole, the jurisdiction provisions are a step forward and should be brought into force.

Do not bring into force the practice provisions. On the whole, these provisions are a step backward, especially for B.C. in a recent CFCSA amendment. Much more work is needed by experienced grassroots community-level practitioners.

There is too much discretion for social workers to interpret what is meant by “best interests of the children” based on colonial western concepts, values and biases. Cultural safety must be explicit.

The definition of “caregiver” places foster parents and biological parents on equal footing in court and in the child welfare system. On the whole, foster parents are equipped with far greater resources to advocate and navigate western systems than biological parents.

We need stronger ties. The practice provisions pit first nations against one another rather than strengthening the circle around children. Intermarriage between nations is not new. Specific to hereditary systems is the important role of the father clan. This flies in the face of the value of multiculturalism in Canada.

As an unintended consequence, stronger nations will get stronger through having resources and leadership to exercise jurisdiction, while struggling nations and smaller communities will likely struggle more with these practise provisions. This is contrary to indigenous values and to the intent of the preamble, which is for all indigenous children. We need a level playing field.

Before I turn it over to my grandfather clan here, it's coming from me when I say that I'm a little bit concerned that this bill is being written without our input. I could go to China or Germany and write a bill for them; that's how it seems to me. This bill is written by people who don't know anything about us or our children. That concerns me.