Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 7th, 2019

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Cathy McLeod]

MP Rachel Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

It was nice to see a new chair in that seat. Thank you very much. It was very short, but it was good.

I will be asking all of you to answer this question.

One of the concerns we've heard from multiple witnesses is around making sure that within the legislation we have actual wording and language around principles of funding. We understand that putting in a dollar amount doesn't make sense, because there's a process that has to unfold.

Numerous witnesses have said that if we don't have a clear principle of what that funding might look like—something similar, perhaps, to the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal decision—this could end up being a hollow piece of legislation. I think all of us in this room understand that resources are desperately needed to address the many issues, as have been outlined for us so clearly with your testimony.

I will start with you, Mr. Chartier.

[Clément Chartier]

Thank you. That's a good question. We did have that in our discussions as we were co-developing this legislation.

Basically, our view is that as we move forward we will be negotiating those levels of resources required for our governments to be able to handle or deal with child and family services. If Parliament were prepared to put in a principle for funding, then we wouldn't be opposed to that: something to the effect of “equitable funding” or “funding required to enable indigenous governments to carry out their responsibilities as necessary”.

Whatever terminology is there, that's fine, but in the absence of terminology, we believe that any government of the day would be prepared to negotiate levels that are required for indigenous governments to be able to fulfill their obligations. I have faith in the system that it's going to work.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

Billie or Greg, do you have anything to add to that?

[Billie Schibler]

As it notes in the preamble, the ongoing call for that funding is that it's sustainable, that it's needs based and consistent with the principles of equality in order for it to have long-term positive outcomes for our families and our communities. I think that says a great deal about where we need to go with that without attaching a dollar amount to it.

Again, yes, I would suggest that this needs to move from the preamble right into wording within the legislation so that we're all really, really clear that it's not just repeating things that have not been effective for us in the past.

We know that everything needs to shift, and we know it needs to shift into those preventative models. We can't determine the dollar amounts that need to be attached to that at this point in time, but if we look at what we're currently paying throughout our systems in each province towards keeping children away from their families and not providing support, and if we look at it not just based on what's happening within our child welfare system, but look at what's happening within our institutions, whether they're addictions facilities or correctional facilities, those are all results of the child welfare system. When you look at all the dollars that go into funding those services, those can all be generated in a different way toward prevention. You'll see a lot of different changes and outcomes for those other systems as well.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

Do you have anything else to add, Greg, or can I move on to the next question?

[Greg Besant]

We can move on, thank you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Another issue that's come forward that you both spoke to, Greg and Billie, was around what's happening through engaging with the different systems. There's been a concern brought forward that there should be funding and support to train front-line workers and to work with judges as this is starting to be implemented to make sure that they deal appropriately with the jurisdictional issues. I'm just wondering—I think this is a concern that a lot of us have already seen unfold—with this new piece of legislation, about making sure that people on the ground understand who they should be calling. It also goes back to a comment earlier about notifying the Métis nation when a child is put into care. I think it's all of these things together.

I'm just wondering if you have any concerns about how that process will unfold and how training will unfold for those key people.

[Billie Schibler]

When we deliver child welfare services, the legislative path for us has to be very, very clear on how that service is delivered, because that's what everybody relies on. If you're dealing with provincial legislation currently that does not outline that as a necessity, that notification to our Métis services that a family has come to their attention, then there's no mechanism for us to become involved at the onset. There's no mechanism for Greg's services of family connect to send people out scouting for a family throughout different communities who we know may be related to those children.

It's not hard. We've done it in the past when we've received phone calls like, “This is a family that has come to our attention. The child and the family may have come from these communities. They say they have family members out there. Can you help us with this?” Wow. Boom, boom. It's amazing how that moccasin telegraph can work when you're looking for people. It takes no time at all for us to locate them, even when we have to cross geographic borders into another province, which are not our borders, by the way. We have to do that, and that can be done. That's going to be a very important piece of it.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

You only have 20 seconds left.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Go ahead.

[Greg Besant]

Moving it from that rights-based mentality is important. Métis people don't have, under our provincial legislation, a right of notice as first nations people do. That it's happening right in the heart of the Métis homeland is unbelievable.

Educating judges is always a difficulty. I believe that there would be broad support amongst the judiciary for some changes towards empowering indigenous people, but that would be a challenge.

Getting it to the front-line people and really educating our nation itself about this would be a very major piece of work for us so that we can ensure our people are getting the services they have a right to.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

The final question goes to MP Ouellette.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you very much, I really appreciate it. I have a quick question for Mr. Chartier.

How would the Métis nation be able to actually pass legislation? What does the organization look like? How will you ensure that your legislation is robust? I was just wondering whether this fulfills the dream of Louis Riel and Gabriel Dumont.

[Clément Chartier]

We do have our governmental bodies, our institutions that currently are capable of passing legislation, and we intend to pass legislation to deal with child and family services. We have the institution. It's simple for us to move forward and pass that kind of legislation. As we move forward in expressing our self-determination and our inherent right of self-government, we will honour the sacrifices and memories of our past leaders, including Louis Riel and Gabriel Dumont as well as the many dozens who sacrificed their lives in defending the historic Métis nation.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you very much. I'm sorry, but we've run out of time.

Meegwetch for coming out and participating. We appreciate it. Thank you for being here in person. It's always good to see you.

We're going to take a very short break to change panels and get started again.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Let's get the committee back into session.

Good morning, everybody. We are televised and for all of those Canadians who are watching, you are watching the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We're discussing the important issue of how we treat indigenous children and families, and how some of the statistics indicate that indeed it has been a failure. We want to hear from you. We have experts on video conference and in person to talk about Bill C-92. You have an opportunity to speak for 10 minutes and after that the other member who is on the panel will have 10 minutes. Ultimately, when all of the presentations are done we'll go into questions from the members.

Let's gets started. From Quebec Native Women Inc., we have Viviane Michel and Éloïse Ouellet-Décoste.

[Miriam Fillion, Communication Officer, Quebec Native Women Inc.]

There's been a change. I'm Miriam Fillion, communications officer for QNW.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

You're not Éloïse. Okay, we'll try to get a different name tag for you because your name tag is wrong.

Welcome to the committee. You can begin whenever you're ready.

[Viviane Michel, President, Quebec Native Women Inc.]

Madam Chair, Honourable Vice-Presidents, Honourable Members of the Committee, kuei.

[The witness speaks in Innu.]

[French]

Before starting, I would like to take a moment to recognize the anishinabe nation and thank it for welcoming us on its vast unceded territory.

Quebec Native Women Inc., or QNW, is a non-profit, non-partisan and bilingual organization. We have been working to defend and promote indigenous women's rights for 10 nations in Quebec, including the rights of those living in urban centres, since 1974.

On behalf of all our members, I thank the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs for inviting us to comment on Bill C-92. At the outset, I would like to state that Quebec Native Women Inc. is in favour of the federal legislator's intent to affirm indigenous peoples' rights to exercise jurisdiction in matters pertaining to child and family services.

Quebec Native Women Inc. is of the opinion that Bill C-92 must be aligned with three main priorities.

The first priority is recognizing our rights to autonomy. The preamble in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples recognizes our right to retain responsibility for the education and well-being of our children. This must include a formal and unequivocal recognition that we are those who understand best the needs of our indigenous children and families and have the necessary knowledge to accompany them in life. Our children are sacred and we believe that our communities are best placed to take care of the children and meet their substantive needs.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Pardon me for interrupting you.

Viviane, your words are very important. Translation is having trouble keeping up with you, so I'm going to ask you to please allow a little time for them to catch up.

Thank you very much.

[Viviane Michel]

This is a big challenge, and I have a short amount of time for my speech.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

We'll try to be generous.

[Viviane Michel]

I have already had to shorten my speech two or three times.

The second priority is the state's duty to offer compensation. We all know that decades of assimilation policies have left deep scars on our indigenous peoples, scars which even now are too often passed down from generation to generation and will take time to heal. The state is responsible for this healing, the state that is the architect of the ills that beset us. Even though our child-rearing knowledge and skills must be recognized, respected and celebrated, that does not mean that the Canadian government can wash its hands of its responsibility towards our nations. The jurisdictional transfer, if it is truly to be in the interests of our children, must be accompanied by concrete measures to repair the damages caused by colonialism.

The third priority is substantive equality. The intricacies of federalism have for far too long served to justify the status quo, which is fundamentally unjust. It is unjust because even now, indigenous children do not enjoy their full rights simply because they are indigenous. It is unjust that because of our history, their needs are greater. And yet the resources given to them are less generous, hard to access and ill-suited.

I will quote the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal's 2016 decision:

Substantive equality and Canada's international obligations require that first nations children on-reserve be provided child and family services of comparable quality and accessibility as those provided to all Canadians off-reserve, including that they be sufficiently funded to meet the real needs of first nations children and families and do not perpetuate historical disadvantage.

Using these three guiding principles, I will now make a few pointed comments on the current version of Bill C-92, in the hope that they will help shape necessary amendments before the bill is passed, in order to ensure that this desperately needed and long-awaited bill will really bring the hoped-for results for indigenous children, their families and their communities.

I will keep to three main topics: funding, Jordan's principle and living conditions for indigenous children.

You know as well as I do that funding is the crux of the matter. Without sufficient funds, it will be impossible for our nations to put into practice the guiding principles provided for in the bill when exercising their jurisdiction in the field of child and family services.

The current sad state of affairs is well known and can no longer be denied since the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal handed down its decision in 2016. Indigenous children are victims of racial discrimination in Canada. This is because of chronic underfinancing of child services in indigenous communities.

Given that the human rights of our children in our communities are being violated, we at Quebec Native Women Inc. were very surprised and disappointed to read that Bill C-92 is silent on the question of funding. The preamble includes a recognition of “the ongoing call for funding for child and family services that is predictable, stable, sustainable, needs-based and consistent with the principle of substantive equality.” And yet the word “funding” does not appear elsewhere in the bill. There are no sections that clearly state how this call will become reality.

Funding here is not a political issue. It is a question of human rights. These are non-negotiable, nor are they optional.

Consequently, Bill C-92 must provide solid commitments on behalf of the federal government for equal funding of child and family services in an indigenous setting in full compliance with the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal's orders. This is the bare minimum that would be acceptable to Quebec Native Women Inc..

I turn now to Jordan's principle and the call for action No. 3 which reads as follows: “We call upon all levels of government to fully implement Jordan's principle.” I would personally like to remind you that the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal has often times repeated that Canada is bound to fully apply Jordan's principle. It seems, however, that this principle is not included in Bill C-92.

What is Jordan's principle? It is simply a principle stating that no care or service can be refused, interrupted or delayed for an indigenous child because of a jurisdictional conflict. And yet in reality in our communities it is sadly not that simple. Too many indigenous children in Canada are still the victims of bureaucratic squabbles and their rights suffer.

Quebec Native Women Inc. notes that subsection 9(3) of Bill C-92, which establishes the principle of substantive equality, states at paragraph (e) that: “[...] a jurisdictional dispute must not result in a gap in the child and family services that are provided in relation to indigenous children.” We are therefore requesting that Bill C-92 be amended in order to fully include Jordan's principle and make it binding on all orders of government who are involved in child and family services for indigenous peoples.

As to socio-economic conditions, the problem of over-representation by indigenous children in youth protection services cannot be separated from other problems affecting indigenous children's well-being.

Quebec Native Women Inc. notes that section 15 of the bill states that poverty and the lack of suitable housing and infrastructure should not be used as a reason to justify the apprehension of an indigenous child by child services. Obviously, such a section is necessary but it does nothing to solve the underlying problems.

If Bill C-92 is indeed to solve the problem of over-representation by indigenous children in child protection services and to help the welfare of indigenous children and families, the bill should include a holistic approach which truly takes into account all the issues affecting our nations. This should include incorporating positive obligations in the bill so that the Canadian government and provinces take all necessary measures in order to improve socio-economic conditions for indigenous children and families. It is essential that these measures apply to all indigenous children, whether they live on a reserve or not and whether they are status Indians or not, in order to ensure substantive equality and to truly work in terms of prevention. I would remind you of section 21 of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples which Canada ratified and has promised to uphold.

Quebec Native Women Inc. has three recommendations concerning Bill C-92.

Firstly, we have to include a specific section in the bill on funding for child and family services for indigenous nations to guarantee predictable, stable, sustainable and needs-based funding in accordance with the principle of substantive equality.

Secondly, the bill must be amended to include Jordan's principle as legally binding on all levels of government and for all types of care and services for indigenous children.

Thirdly, the bill must include positive obligations for the Canadian government and provinces who will take all necessary measures to improve socio-economic conditions for indigenous children and their families, including those living off-reserve and in cities.

Ladies and gentlemen, in conclusion, I would like to remind you that today you have the opportunity to truly act for your country. Do not let it go by. The life and well-being of thousands of children depend on you. Don't let politics make you forget for whom you are working: children. Do not forget either why you are working: to give those children a chance to lead a rich and dignified life.