Evidence of meeting #30 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was suicide.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Amy Bombay  Assistant Professor, Department of Psychiatry, As an Individual
John Haggarty  Professor / Chief of Psychiatry, Northern Ontario School Medicine / St. Joseph's Care group, As an Individual
Laurence Kirmayer  Professor and Director, Division of Social and Transcultural Psychiatry, McGill University, Director, Culture and Mental Health Research Unit, Institute of Community and Family Psychiatry, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Michelle Legault

4:25 p.m.

Professor / Chief of Psychiatry, Northern Ontario School Medicine / St. Joseph's Care group, As an Individual

Dr. John Haggarty

It takes a lot of subtlety. It's really community-based. It's really how well people feel invited as family or peers to engage with health care services. It's now starting to be a part of the structure of health care delivery models—i.e., where is the advice-giving from those who are users of this service model?

I'd say it's not a formal part of most structures, and it's certainly not a part of the service-delivery model concept that I've put forward, but making it work is an important background issue.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Professor / Chief of Psychiatry, Northern Ontario School Medicine / St. Joseph's Care group, As an Individual

Dr. John Haggarty

I'll leave a copy of this.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

The clerk, Michelle, should have one as well.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you.

That ends the panel discussion for now.

Dr. Bombay and Dr. Haggarty, thank you very much for making the trip to come and see us. From your testimony, the depth of your experience is clear. It's of great assistance to us in our work. Thank you very much.

We'll take a short suspension.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

We'll continue the meeting with our next panel.

The next witness is Dr. Laurence Kirmayer, professor and director at the division of social and transcultural psychiatry at McGill University. He's also director of the culture and mental health research unit at the Institute of Community and Family Psychiatry at the Jewish General Hospital. He is joining us by teleconference from Montreal.

Welcome, Dr. Kirmayer. It's very kind of you to join us today. We are very happy to offer you the floor for 10 minutes to make your presentation. After that we'll move into a round of questions from committee members, if that sounds good to you.

4:30 p.m.

Dr. Laurence Kirmayer Professor and Director, Division of Social and Transcultural Psychiatry, McGill University, Director, Culture and Mental Health Research Unit, Institute of Community and Family Psychiatry, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's a privilege for me to be able to speak with you. I regret I can't be there in person, and I thank you for your patience with telecommunications. I had the opportunity to listen to the last 20 or 25 minutes or so of my colleagues' presentation, so I'll try to build a little on that in my own remarks.

With regard to my own background and the perspective that I bring to this, the program I direct at McGill is focused on issues of culture and mental health. It's primarily concerned with putting the social and cultural dimensions into our thinking about mental health problems. I also direct the national Network for Aboriginal Mental Health Research, which was funded by CIHR to build capacity across Canada to do research in ways that respond to the needs of communities, in terms of both the protocols and the actual topics of concern.

My own research was driven by my experience as a clinician working in northern Quebec and Nunavut, going back to the late eighties, during which time I encountered many young people making suicide attempts. Despite efforts on the part of myself and many people in the communities, over time the problem has continued in many places, and indeed has been exacerbated by a variety of factors.

My own research over 25 years or so now, with many colleagues, has been aimed at trying to understand what is distinctive about indigenous mental health issues, and suicide in particular, with a view to developing meaningful interventions.

I'll say a few words about what's distinctive. I apologize, again. I know this presentation is coming at the end of a long string of experts you have heard, who have given you, I hope, a very vivid picture. Most of what I'm going to say, I'm sure is already very familiar to you. Hopefully, I can address specific issues with you in the questions afterward.

What's distinctive about the situation of indigenous people in Canada is, first of all, the shared history of colonization and of the state apparatus that specifically targeted people's cultures and ways of life, and, in so doing, unravelled some of the fabric of community for people in ways that are still echoing down the generations.

What's also a common dilemma across these communities is their very geographic locations, their cultures and contexts, which pose challenges for the delivery of conventional mental health services. Finally, what's distinctive, looking more specifically at mental health, is the fact that suicide in these communities occurs primarily among young people, starting from early teens into young adulthood, and it often occurs in clusters. I think all of these are reflections of a particular social dynamic, a particular social context.

In addition to the conventional psychiatric or psychological or mental health approach, which tends to focus on individual characteristics and individual vulnerability, all of that kind of knowledge is certainly pertinent to understanding why one person rather than another in any particular community is vulnerable. However, given the high levels across whole communities and whole cohorts of young people, we have to look at the broader factors. Those are primarily social and structural factors. They include what I've already mentioned and what the work of many speakers, including Amy Bombay, speaks to, which is this history of suppression of culture and of forced assimilation and the disruption to parenting that resulted, in terms of the kinds of early parenting experiences that young people have in the community.

Then, in addition to those transgenerational forces, there are ongoing structural problems related to poverty, to relative poverty, not just to the absolute constraints of infrastructure, but to young people's sense of their own possibilities or disadvantage. There are also the problems of housing and crowding, infrastructure, and limited educational and vocational opportunities. Added to that mix is exposure to high rates of interpersonal violence, childhood abuse, and domestic abuse, resulting from trauma-related problems.

Finally, in the larger society, there is a dilemma of what we could call the “misrecognition” of indigenous people in terms of their histories, their autonomy, and their identities, and, along with that in many places, elements of racism and discrimination that really hit people very hard.

All of these issues need to be looked at to try to explain why certain communities, many indigenous communities, and young people in particular are affected. Also, in a sense, we have to put together the conventional body of knowledge in mental health around individual vulnerability, which most of our interventions are oriented toward, with a broader social perspective that understands these historical and contemporary forces that are really raising the vulnerability of a whole population.

We've also been involved in research, working with different first nations and Inuit communities around questions of resilience, because although rates of suicide are high in many communities, of course there are many communities and many families and individuals who are doing well, despite common adversities. There again, we assume that much of what's been learned about resilience in the general psychological literature is pertinent, but in our research, we try to look at what might be specific to indigenous communities in terms of aspects of resilience.

Very roughly, four broad themes came out of that work.

One was the notion of identity as being tied to place, tied to the land, and tied to the environment, and the sense in which one can have a self that is deeply related to the environment. That applies in particular for communities in remote and rural areas, where people are still very much surrounded by a living environment that they feel emotionally connected to.

The second distinctive source of resilience—I mention these because if we are looking at vulnerability factors, we also have to look at where the solutions might lie—has to with the recuperation of tradition, language, and spirituality, all of those sources of positive identity that we each draw from to have a sense of who we are and where we come from and a sense of pride in our background. Since that was an explicit target of the state policies that I've mentioned, such as residential schools and other policies, the strengthening and reinvigoration of indigenous traditions is recognized as important in many communities.

The third has to do with the oral transmission of knowledge, the idea that one trusted source of knowledge—the most basic, perhaps—comes from other people, and it comes in the form of stories that are rooted in tradition and convey a sense of collective knowledge that can then be a source of personal strength and problem-solving ability.

Finally, the thing that was raised by a number of communities we worked with was the notion of political activism. Given the history of disempowerment and the conflicts people have faced, the ability to engage actively in some way in taking control of local institutions—as was shown in the work of Michael Chandler and Chris Lalonde—and being able to feel a sense of empowerment and a collective voice is a very important issue, and for young people as well.

We've been interested in how these kinds of observations, which come from communities themselves, can be translated into effective intervention. Part of the challenge is that suicide itself, although it's an urgent problem and demands its own focus, is in a sense part of a larger array of interwoven issues related to mental health and well-being, so it probably requires a multipronged approach, in which some responses are targeted to the acute vulnerability to suicide, and others have to do with following up on people who are recognized as being at risk and providing them with appropriate resources that can prevent the escalation of their problem. Ultimately, they would have to do with long-term prevention, beginning with very young children and with parents before they have children, working through infancy and early childhood, and helping to strengthen resilience.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

You have just one minute remaining, Dr. Kirmayer.

4:40 p.m.

Professor and Director, Division of Social and Transcultural Psychiatry, McGill University, Director, Culture and Mental Health Research Unit, Institute of Community and Family Psychiatry, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual

Dr. Laurence Kirmayer

I direct a CIHR-funded Pathways to Health Equity suicide prevention implementation research team for first nations communities. We've been involved in recent years in working with first nations communities to develop mental health promotion strategies that are rooted in local culture and that can blend conventional mental health ideas about family well-being and youth resilience with a framework that is grounded in local culture and identity.

I think the take-home message for me is that it's not either-or. People need access to adequate basic mental health services, particularly in times of crisis and particularly for those who are most vulnerable, and also, the community as a whole can benefit from mental health promotion strategies that blend good ideas about improving family well-being, community well-being, and individual health with a strengthening of local culture and identity.

Thank you very much.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you very much for that, Dr. Kirmayer.

We'll move right into questions from committee members. I'll just let everyone know that we're going to be carrying on until 5:15 in this panel, at which time we'll switch to committee business.

The first question for you, Dr. Kirmayer, comes from Mike Bossio.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you very much, Doctor, for being here today and for an outstanding presentation and the information you provided.

This hits at a lot of what I've been talking about throughout this study—the questions around re-establishing cultural heritage and the pride that goes with that, as well as self-governance and long-term stable funding. Would you agree that this connection to cultural heritage, whether through language, art, or the land, is imperative in dealing with the long-term nature of the suicide crisis that we've been dealing with?

4:45 p.m.

Professor and Director, Division of Social and Transcultural Psychiatry, McGill University, Director, Culture and Mental Health Research Unit, Institute of Community and Family Psychiatry, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual

Dr. Laurence Kirmayer

Well, thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think it is essential but it needs to be flexible, because in most communities there really are a range of perspectives. There are people who are sorely missing a sense of connection to their historical traditions and who want to recuperate them. There are people who are oriented in other ways. There are people in some communities who strongly identify with various forms of contemporary Christianity. There are other kinds of emerging forms of identity. So, as in any community in Canada, young people need a range of options and need to be able to find strength within any of those. It certainly is true, though, that the community as a whole has experienced, in a way that few other communities have, a kind of undermining of its collective identity. That can be strengthened and supported with benefit to everyone, even those for whom that will not be at the centre of how they construct their new identify as a young person. Maybe they want to be a scientist or a business person or some other kind of person in larger society.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Okay. Thank you so much, Doctor.

Very quickly, because I want to share my time with my fellow member Hunter Tootoo, and just feeding off of that, once again I guess it's imperative that the communities be the ones to establish the priorities. Therefore, the long-term stable funding needs to be there to support those priorities. Would you agree with that?

4:45 p.m.

Professor and Director, Division of Social and Transcultural Psychiatry, McGill University, Director, Culture and Mental Health Research Unit, Institute of Community and Family Psychiatry, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual

Dr. Laurence Kirmayer

Yes, I agree with that absolutely. Again, that speaks to the notion that the dilemma is in the sense of a loss of control, and that filters from the adults who are sort of mandated to exert control down to young people looking ahead to what their life might be like. I think re-establishing that in a meaningful way is going to be helpful to communities.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Thank you, Doctor, and I will now pass my time over to Hunter Tootoo.

4:45 p.m.

Independent

Hunter Tootoo Independent Nunavut, NU

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mike.

Thank you for the presentation. I have just one question I can think of.

You talked about a multipronged approach and the importance of long-term prevention and basic health services. If you've worked in northern Quebec and in Makivik, you've seen first-hand the challenges with being able to deliver those services there. How important do you feel it is to be able to have and provide those services, and to be able to help address this crisis in those communities? What are some of the barriers or obstacles you see to being able to deliver those services in those more rural and remote areas?

4:45 p.m.

Professor and Director, Division of Social and Transcultural Psychiatry, McGill University, Director, Culture and Mental Health Research Unit, Institute of Community and Family Psychiatry, Jewish General Hospital, As an Individual

Dr. Laurence Kirmayer

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I mentioned a multipronged approach partly representing different time frames. When individuals are in acute crisis, they need support and intervention at that time, and that requires particular resources. That raises right away one of the dilemmas in small remote communities, which is that our models of crisis intervention, for example, are generally based on a large urban environment where helping professionals are not directly related to the people who are involved. That's how people are trained, and that's how the various kinds of interventions are configured. It's very different in small communities, where it's likely that somebody who is affected is closely related to the people who are ostensibly offering help. That has both strengths and limitations. The strength is obviously that there is, or can be, a strong emotional bond and a deep understanding of the individual's predicament. The limitation is that it can be overwhelming for the care providers. They may feel that their actions are very constrained because of their relations with other people, and so on. It's part of why I say I think it's important to have both inside sources of help and support from outside, when a community is facing particularly challenging and severe acute problems.

There's no substitute for local support, for a safe place to go, for somebody who can be with individuals who are in crisis and who can offer a kind of warmth of human connection and understanding of their predicament, and solidarity, and intervene to protect them in different ways.

But there's also a need for people who have an ability to stand back from the situation and offer help and support from a position of not being entangled in whatever local conflicts are at that moment affecting the young person, for example.

This is one central issue in terms of training community mental health workers in crisis intervention, whether it's coming through the nursing station, a community worker, a self-help organization, a church, or other organizations within communities. It's one dilemma, and I think here again is an example of how it would be important to use perhaps e-health and other strategies to support people from a distance to do the work that only they can do up close because of their intimate knowledge.

This speaks to an equally important issue in terms of the intermediate range of intervention. When we think of intermediate intervention in this context, we're talking about identifying people—youth in particular—who may be at high risk for repeated suicide attempts or ultimately for death by suicide. They may need more intensive intervention, something along the lines of an extensive re-engagement, with connection in social networks, with some form of focused cognitive therapy, dialectical behaviour therapy, particular forms of intervention that help people who are having lots of recurrent and intense suicidal feelings and ideation, to help them deal with it more effectively. That is a fairly skilled kind of intervention, which again probably needs to be provided through some kind of pairing of local people and someone available perhaps outside the community.

Finally on the largest scale and the longest time frame, the hope is that we can really prevent more people from getting into the kind of predicament of contemplating suicide, and that is through prevention programs. Those I think are very clearly things that can be provided primarily by the community with help from outside the community in terms of programming.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thank you very much, Dr. Kirmayer.

The next question is from David Yurdiga.

October 24th, 2016 / 4:50 p.m.

Conservative

David Yurdiga Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank Dr. Kirmayer for participating in our suicide study. It's a study that's been going on for some time, and everything we've heard so far points to the healing process. We have heard testimony on suicide, poverty, incarceration, and a variety of other issues since the committee started looking at the indigenous issues in isolated communities and communities around Canada. We must not only keep looking at issues but also start looking into the proposed solutions the TRC report put forward.

Mr. Chair, I would like to apologize to the doctor. With my remaining allotted time, due to the importance of the TRC report, I want to resume debate on my motion and have it voted on. My motion reads as follows:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee study the progress of the Government of Canada’s promise to implement the Calls to Action of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, including the resources that have been both expended and earmarked, as well as implications of implementing the Calls to Action; that the witness list include, but not be limited to, the Minister of Indigenous and Northern Affairs, the Minister of Justice, the Minister of Health, the Minister of Heritage, the Minister of Sport, and the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship; government officials from Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada, the Department of Justice, Health Canada, Heritage Canada, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada; and that the Committee report its findings to the House no later than June 1, 2017.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Thanks a lot, David.

By way of explanation to Dr. Kirmayer, Mr. Yurdiga is using the rules of the committee, as he's permitted to do, to insert some debate on a previous motion that's been before us. If we get through this promptly, we'll come back to you. Please do stand by, and we ask for your patience. Thank you.

Is there any discussion on the motion?

I have Gary and Arnold, and then Charlie.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Mr. Chair, I believe we have a lot of time for committee business toward the end of the session. I think it's disrespectful to interrupt a very eminent speaker today who is giving us very valuable information. I would respectfully ask that we defer this to the discussion that's scheduled for 5:15.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Gary, David's within his rights to ask this, so the question is really to him, if he's willing to do that.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

David Yurdiga Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB

It won't take long. I request that we vote on this, if possible.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore

Okay.

Arnold.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would highly recommend that our entire committee support this motion. We've heard time and time again that the TRC recommendations are important for this government to get under way. We want to make sure that's happening. I think it would be highly advantageous for us to take up a study on the TRC recommendations and how they're being implemented. I'd recommend we support this motion.