Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 16th, 2016

[Jane Philpott, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I don't want to respond to the specifics of a case that I don't know the details about, but I can tell you—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But is it right?

[Jane Philpott, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I can tell you that we are absolutely committed to the full implementation of Jordan's principle. We have put the money and the resources behind it.

My department...you know....

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. The issue, then, is that a two-year-old boy was turned down for an audiology test, not by the doctor but by a bureaucrat. If that policy is still in place, it is still discriminatory.

In terms of the denial of services to children for mental health services, or the delays where kids have ended up falling through the cracks, do you track them? What we hear is that Health Canada turns it down and says to go to Indian Affairs, and Indian Affairs says to go to Health Canada. Do you track those cases?

[Jane Philpott, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Mr. Angus, I would encourage you and any of your constituents and others for whom you are advocating.... Once again, I congratulate you on advocating. I don't think we do anybody any favours by blaming officials who are working very hard to address the system. That's not to say that there is not room for improvement—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay, but this is not about blame. Do you track and do you keep records of these children? Because you're responsible for them? Does your department track them?

[Jane Philpott, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

You know what? If there are specific cases, I would like you to bring those to my attention and speak to me at any time and speak to my officials.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

[Jane Philpott, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

If there are particular cases—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'll give you an example, because we had your chief executive director at committee and I asked him that question. He said that of course we track, that of course, if they need service, we track that. I asked if he would pass those records over to our committee so we'd know if this is hearsay or not, and he said he would. Committee testimony is like speaking on the record: you have to be truthful. But when I asked your department, your department said they don't track.

Just because you don't track children who fall through the cracks doesn't mean you're not responsible for them. My question is, how can you then do any kind of financial planning if you're not actually tracking the denial rates of children who are needing these services? If you don't track, how do you know?

[Jane Philpott, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

It is my understanding that for any requests that are made are there is a tracking mechanism to respond to those. If there's evidence to the contrary, I look forward to hearing that.

I can perhaps ask Mr. Perron—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I don't need names. I just want to know what the percentages are, because I note that in terms of denial rates for special orthodontics it's gone up to 99% appeals. We have that on record. Why don't we have the denial rates for children needing mental health services who are facing the potential risk of suicide? Do you have it or don't you?

[Jane Philpott, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I will ask Sony if he wants to comment in terms of whether that's available.

[Sony Perron, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, First Nations and Inuit Health Branch, Department of Health]

In terms of access to mental health services, I believe you refer to the mental services under the non-insured health benefit. Every individual who is a first nation or Inuit person has access to coverage for a certain number of sessions every year—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, I know, but people are told time and time again that it doesn't exist, so I asked your official, “Do you track?” He said yes. I asked, do you have the statistics? He said yes, and then I asked, would you give them to us? He said yes. We contacted your department and we were given a letter saying you don't have any of these records.

How can you tell us that you're actually looking after these children if you don't bother to track and yet you tell our committee that you do?

[Sony Perron]

If I can answer this one, we don't track denials, because under this program everybody is eligible—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Ah. So everyone is eligible, but if they don't get served, then they fall through the cracks.

[Sony Perron]

But the service is coming from private providers. We don't necessarily have a tracking of whether people have asked for these sessions or have seen the providers; we confirm that we will be covering the cost.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

That's like a form of systemic negligence if you don't actually know—

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

I'm afraid we'll have to leave that question there. We've over the time now.

The next question is from Michael McLeod, and we'll have to suspend again after that.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Go ahead, please.

[Gary Anandasangaree, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON]

Given the timing and given that we do have another session, I'm wondering if we could see what we can do with NWAC and our guests who are here today, because it may not be appropriate to keep them and have us run out of time. I'm wondering if there's a way to have them speak and maybe not have them wait for another hour only to have us come back and say that we won't have time. I'm wondering if we can deal with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Andy Fillmore]

Okay. I have an idea for that.

Minister, did you want to...?

[Jane Philpott, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

I was going to say that it may be easier for me to come back another time than for your other guests to come back, so if it's easier to reschedule me—