Evidence of meeting #37 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Who is responsible to ensure that government funds are spent appropriately—
November 28th, 2016 / 4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
I think there needs to be some relevance to the issue at hand today. The minister is here to speak about the estimates, and I think we're really going off track. I don't think it's an appropriate line of questioning, so I'd like to ask the member, through you, to limit the conversation to what's at—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore
Arnold, can you bring it back? Are you going to come to the punchline and bring it back?
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Yes, for sure.
Entirely, we're increasing spending and you admittedly have said that when we bring spending through the provinces or whatever, we want to ensure that it is indeed going to where it's going. My question is, every other level of government did this basic democracy.... If I want to know what my town councillor makes or where the town is spending money, I have it in 30 seconds on Google. If I want to know what my MLA's pay is, or his expenses, I have it in 30 seconds on Google. If I want to know what my expenses are, I have it on Google in 30 seconds.
Who is responsible for ensuring the funding that you're giving to bands or through provinces is actually getting spent where you're putting it?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore
Minister, we're out of time on that question. Perhaps the answer could come in under the next question.
To maintain fairness amongst the members, I have to move on.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
I do want to say that in democratic, elected governments, that is the way that.... We are still disappointed that the Kelowna Accord, which included first nations, got torn up, and now we're rebuilding a new way of going about that such that.... But we have no responsibility—
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore
There will be a whole other round, so I have a feeling there will be lots of opportunity.
The next five-minute question is from Gary Anandasangaree please.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
Thank you, Madam Minister. I really appreciate your continued engagement with the committee.
I thank you all for joining us.
I would like to pick up on where we left off with Arnold's questioning.
With respect to the first nations communities, when we go around the country and speak to people, I don't hear the issue of transparency as the number one issue. Drinking water, education, housing, violence—we could name probably 100 other issues before this comes up.
Could you give us a sense as to the direction of our government with respect to this issue in relation to the other issues that I identified and some things that you're working on, please?
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
Thanks, Gary.
I think that we and the first nations really are committed to transparency and accountability. That's the way we want to go, and they want to go that way too.
It is also—just to answer the member—about accountability for results. That's what we want from provinces. Its a question of whether the money got the results that you need, not where every cent of it went but whether it got results. Our job, nation-to-nation, is to sort that out. If there are some bad apples, then we should deal with that. That's why it's exciting now to be working on describing the new fiscal arrangement between first nations and the federal government. There will also be an opportunity to design a transparency and accountability relationship, such that the indicators and the transparency are there.
As you know, we have no responsibility for own-source revenues that come into the first nations. The first nations have a responsibility to their members around that. This is about bottom-up.... Its about citizens actually owning and having the right to the information from their leadership. Otherwise, they should get rid of their leadership. It is the same for us, right?
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
Thank you.
You mentioned several times that the funding model is based on needs-based funding. Do you believe that the funding envelope that's available now is adequate? If not, what is the gap and where do we need to end up?
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
I think I've said many times in many speeches that this is a first step and that we know this is only a beginning. I think that as we look to do better, we hope there will be certain areas that won't need money in the future, like income assistance and some of the other issues. When we have better health outcomes and better education outcomes, we will end up with better economic outcomes.
Needs-based funding means that we have to go and ask, and ascertain the need. That's what we're doing.
Liberal
Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON
There has been some recent controversy over an apparent lapse in funds, as indicated in the public accounts table this fall.
Could you explain the figures in the public accounts and the discrepancy?
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
Sure. The first one I mentioned was the money that lapsed on education and that was only.... Maybe I'll start with the $900 million that is set aside to resolve claims. You have to set aside and book a certain amount of money if these claims are agreed upon so that the money is there. If the agreement is not reached, then that same amount of money gets rolled forward into the next year until the claim is settled, and the money would be there for the payout.
The same thing was there in the education piece. We had put some money into the budget to incent and begin to bring people together to develop education systems. The lapse in the education dollars is just because we're very close to getting those education systems, and I hope that we can bring some more money and people together, but that money moves forward into the next year so that, again, there's that money to try to create these education systems.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Andy Fillmore
Thank you, Minister.
We'll have to leave it there.
The next question is coming from Shannon Stubbs, please.
Conservative
Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister and other witnesses, for being here.
As a part-Ojibwa woman who represents many first nations, Métis, and Dene people and communities in my northeastern Alberta riding, it's a privilege for me to be able to participate in this committee whenever I can.
I wrote my thesis many years ago on residential schools, harm and responsibility in the system, the generational impacts on identity wellness, and the socio-economic impacts we see today, so it really is a privilege for me to be able to participate in these conversations whenever I can.
I have some questions on nutrition north. I think we all recognize that there are ongoing challenges, obstacles, and improvements that need to be made. I think all of us here just want to ensure in good faith that the best possible approaches are taken to deal with this particular challenge in the north. I understand your department is in ongoing consultations with communities in the north this year on the program. I just invite you, if you would, to tell us a little bit about those consultations, what's going on, and key learnings that you've undertaken so far.
I'll also just ask you about this issue of traditional hunts and ensuring that local and fresh food is available. Some communities have suggested there should be a subsidy to traditional hunting, and that might also include subsidies for equipment and fuel, so I just wonder if you could give us any insight on what actions the department could take to ensure that traditional foods and meats might be available to residents at an affordable cost.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
Just to back up a tiny bit, nutrition north actually, unfortunately, only went into the communities that already qualified for the food mail program, but there were many other communities, 37, that were sufficiently isolated that should be included. Our first step was to include those 37 other communities that certainly qualify as remote with expensive food. That was the first thing we did.
Then we said that the system doesn't seem to be working, and, as you know, the big campaign in Nunavut, feeding our families.... People seemed to sense that, although certain food prices came down, somehow at the end of the week when they pushed their shopping cart out, the bill seemed to be higher, and that they used to be able to feed their families, but now they can't. Whether those are things like laundry detergent or diapers, things that you absolutely need, we want to make sure that people can afford healthy food, so that's the negotiation that's going on.
To be perfectly honest, people want to have the tough conversation in these consultations that are going on. Is this a food security program or is it a fairness for remote people program? I know I'm not allowed to say this, but is it for the lawyers in the north to get cheaper pineapples? I'm not sure that was the intent of the program, so we have to have that tough conversation about, “If we pay out this much money, would you be putting it into food security or would you be spreading it more thinly?”
There are a few places where they're worried about herd population and fishing, and where they're not so sure about supplementing the harvesters, but almost everywhere I've been, people want us to explore the kinds of harvesters programs that were there in NTI and other places and what the best design would be to really get harvesters back able to feed their families, their communities, and the elders.
Conservative
Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB
Okay, thank you.
Would you say there's a potential for a proposed pilot program, or is that still—
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
I should have mentioned that. Thanks.
We are already funding a couple of pilot projects with people who have some good ideas. We're going to fund those programs and see if they work. If they work, then that could be put out for other communities.