Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 9th, 2017

[Carol Hopkins]

—they used culture.

Addressing the social determinants of health is a definite requirement, but also using culture strengthens the community from within. They develop their own solutions and create astounding outcomes.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you very much.

We will move on to MP Yurdiga.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here this morning. This is a very important study and we have a big challenge ahead of us and we're looking forward to finding solutions.

What are some of the challenges in delivering a youth suicide prevention program under our current funding formula? I'll put that out to both witnesses, please.

[Carol Hopkins]

I'd like to offer some perspective on that.

One of the consistent issues is that funding has been more and more directed towards evidence-based solutions. The evidence is clearly focused on safety, but also on a conversation on death. Safety is necessary, but young people have said that they need skills in how to talk with their peers to promote life. In the context of the environment that they live in—the poverty, all of the social inequities—when their peers are talking about committing suicide in that context, how do they work with them to give them hope and facilitate their thinking towards continuing to live?

The answer you have given, and clearly from research as well, is that they need to be empowered with an understanding of their world view and how culture makes a difference. That's not accessible in first nations communities. We don't employ elders and cultural practitioners in the same way that we employ social workers, psychologists, and psychiatrists. We don't rely on indigenous knowledge because the perception is that there is no evidence to demonstrate its efficacy.

There is little evidence but there is evidence, so I'd like to offer that as a solution, first of all. Again, it's going back to that paradigm shift of what we rely on as evidence and empowering first nations communities to use culture, which is still very much accessible but lives on the periphery of our communities because it's not part of formal programs and services.

I'll end there. Thank you.

[Bernard Richard]

I won't use up much time. I really want to echo what Carol just said.

Just recently, in October, we held a youth engagement forum called “Ignite your Spirit” at which we had 25 indigenous youth in care or recently out of care. Overwhelmingly, they said that what they craved was a connection to their identify and their culture, especially if they were in the care system, because often they're not in their own communities.

Sadly, that's the reality in British Columbia, and I think in other places as well. They asked for more connection to their culture and to their language. They wanted to know who they were and where they came from. I think that's essential. In our conventional medical systems that's just outside of convention, but it's absolutely necessary if we're going to succeed.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

Do you believe that a national strategy for suicide prevention among indigenous people is needed, or is a grassroots approach more appropriate?

I put that to both witnesses.

[Bernard Richard]

I'm fine with both, but I do think that any program has to be anchored in communities, in community values, and community culture. If a national strategy is what's needed to generate the funding that's required, that's fine. There are principles that exist. I think Carol has been quite eloquent on that front. There is research out there to ensure that these principles are known and disseminated throughout the country. That's fine, but for those programs to be successful, they have to be community-based.

[Carol Hopkins]

One thing I would like to add to the comments already made is that we have a tendency to think that we need new solutions when a new problem emerges amongst indigenous populations. I'd like to draw your attention back to the first nations mental wellness continuum framework. That framework was developed by first nations people in conversation across the country over a few years, in partnership with the Assembly of First Nations, and Health Canada. That framework is a systematic approach to mental wellness, and it gives clear guidance for promoting wellness and facilitating wellness in first nations communities.

My fear is that if we develop another strategy, we'll create another document that has no capacity to be implemented. The mental wellness continuum framework didn't come with new funding. It didn't come with the necessary capacity to actually implement that framework. My recommendation would be that we use what we have, invest in what we have, and build capacity towards those things.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Our committee has travelled through many northern communities, and one of the issues we heard about was recruiting and retaining professional health workers in indigenous communities. How can we address this? It's very difficult for relationships to be developed between the health workers and the people needing help.

Is funding the major issue or is it the isolation that prohibits attracting health care professionals to northern communities?

[Carol Hopkins]

I think you've named two of the primary reasons.

The third one I would add to your comments is that we don't rely on the strengths that exist within communities. First nations people have been trained that the answer or solution comes from someplace else. That's what happens as a result of colonization. We colonize our own knowledge and our own strengths by not recognizing where they exist. They exist in culture. They exist within elders and within cultural practitioners who are not part of those formal programs and services.

I think that part of the solution in first nations communities is to step back and really examine the strengths and the assets that exist outside of formal programs and services, and then to look at how to include those.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

Moving on to the New Democratic Party, we have MP Saganash.

[Romeo Saganash, NDP, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to both witnesses for their presentations.

I certainly can relate to what both of you have said in your presentations. I'm from the last generation of Crees who were born on the land. I spent the first several years of my life out on the land with my parents and siblings before being taken away to residential school for the following 10 years, so I can safely say from that experience what saved me as an individual was my culture and the fact that I can speak my language fluently today. I can definitely relate to what both of you have said. It has nothing to do with having a shack for my canoe or paddles as the Prime Minister suggested not too long ago.

Both of you have answered most of the questions I had, but I have an additional one for Mr. Richard. You're an Acadian. I'm a Cree. One of the things I've learned through the material I've read while we were doing this study is the fact that before the Quiet Revolution in Quebec, Quebec had the lowest rate of suicides among all provinces in this country. Since the Quiet Revolution, it has the highest.

How do you explain that, and can we draw from that experience somehow for our indigenous youth today?

[Bernard Richard]

It's a big question.

But thank you for asking it.

I'm not sure I can answer that.

I know as an Acadian our legendary rock group from the 1970s was 1755, the year of the expulsion of the Acadians. They would always end their concerts with

“Be proud of who you are.”

That has stayed with me all my life up until now and will continue to stay with me.

I think that pride in self, pride in culture.... Canada is blessed with a multitude of its own cultures and languages. There are 203 first nations in British Columbia with dozens of languages spoken. That's a richness we should be proud of.

Of course, there's no question we can't erase history. It's there, but we can reconcile. I said that about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, that it was strong on truth but I was concerned it would be weak on reconciliation. I remain concerned about that. Throwing more money at the issues, if you don't do it the right way, won't resolve any of the problems.

I was on a conference call with the minister just a couple of weeks ago, and she said—I don't want to take up too much time—$100 million has been put into the system. That same week I met two child and family services agency directors, and they said there's not much evidence of that on the ground.

We can spend a lot of money on bureaucracies and intergovernmental squabbling while children in communities are still wanting for the kinds of things that Carol has talked about and you talk about. I couldn't agree more, but I really do think that culture is the key. I take that from my life, the history of my own people, and I think it applies to all people.

Sorry, Carol, for taking so much time.

[Carol Hopkins]

I agree completely. You've obviously had very good testimony and you've studied this through your travel to first nations communities. Investing in culture directly to first nations communities, partnering across federal government departments, and partnering with provinces and federal governments to align and pool resources, I think, are necessary for creating the significant shift that we need to ensure that we rely on culture. We can fly in and recruit the outside experts, but that's only going to take us so far. If we don't attend to the spirit of indigenous people, from culture and spirituality, our own world view, then we're never going to get far enough.

As I said earlier, we have to be thinking about infant mental health: the fetus, at birth, early childhood, and infancy. As was already said, we anchor life with those types of activities. Investing in midwifery and indigenous forms of doula care is a significant way of preventing children from going into the child welfare system.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

We're going to move on to MP Bratina for another round of questions.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

Thanks to our witnesses today. I should tell you both, I'm not a regular member of this particular committee, but I've been profoundly interested in the issues. Going back to my days as the mayor of Hamilton, we worked on off-reserve aboriginal housing for the significant number of aboriginal people who live in urban centres such as Hamilton. However, it brought up a question. We were all terribly moved by the tragic fire that occurred on one of the far north reserves, where so many people were lost. Housing was mentioned in your testimony so far, and we often see pictures of very desperate-looking communities, especially on the remote reserves.

One of the things that we attempted to do, that I did, was to introduce a different type of housing, which would be modular steel houses with very modern technologies that would involve air circulation, heat, water, and so on. What we found was that the procurement issue was difficult because it was done basically within individual reserves, and even to promote a pilot project to do several houses of a different sort than we'd typically see was really difficult, and we haven't been able to achieve that yet.

I'm concerned that these children, in some cases, are being brought up in communities with desperate-looking built form, the way the water systems, the houses, and so on are built. They become mouldy. They are fire hazards. Fire suppression is very difficult in some of the remote reserves. I appreciate all the points that your testimony has brought forward, but let me ask you about this one element, and it is a very broad and complex issue.

Is there a way that we can actually influence better housing conditions, better mechanical and technical situations on reserves, which are basically, in the procurement sense, in the hands of the reserves themselves and their chiefs? Would anyone be able to comment on that?

[Carol Hopkins]

I'll take a stab at that. Without knowing all of the issues related to the housing procurement, first nations governments that are struggling with solutions to address housing issues often fight issues related to funding. Significant milestones have been achieved by arrangements with financial institutions that increase opportunity and capacity for loans on reserve, which historically was not the case, so that access to housing is more accessible. That would be primarily more in the south than in northern Canada, where you see more activity related to the financing of housing and increased availability of housing in first nations communities.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Yes.

[Carol Hopkins]

The issue is related to poor housing, substandard housing. We have had no capacity to meet the growing demand. In first nations communities, we have a majority of our population under the age of 30. We have young people, growing families, and it's impossible to keep up with the demand for and the need for housing. We have multiple generations living in a house.

What are the arrangements for those solutions to meet that kind of demand, to address the procurement issues? I'm not exactly sure, except that those conversations require the inclusion of indigenous governments, and more conversation about structural changes that facilitate the types of solutions you're talking about.

I go back to the first nations mental wellness continuum framework. We have this beautiful framework. It's meaningful to provincial governments, territorial governments, first nations governments, first nations communities and health services, but we don't have the funding to implement it.

When we do implement it, oftentimes what we run up against is federal government policies that have not been adapted to mirror the framework that has been signed onto by the federal government. It's only in the implementation that we realize what the policy issues are, and then it's a conversation about how we change the policies to meet the needs of the community that is trying to move forward.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

On the element of self-esteem, I can remember my growing up days in a not very affluent neighbourhood. There were some of my friends who lived in very modest homes, let's say. I know they really didn't want us to go over and play at their house because they didn't feel it was quite as nice as some of the other houses. It's just one little piece of the whole thing.

Let me, in my brief time—

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

You have 30 seconds.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I have 30 seconds, wow.

I wanted to ask about previous testimony before the committee. Some witnesses, including indigenous youth, anecdotally suggested that experiences of childhood adversity such as abuse or violence are risk factors for suicide. Perhaps now that my time is up, someone else can pick up on that aspect.

I thank you very much for being here.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Could we ask for a quick response from Mr. Richard?

[Bernard Richard]

I'll only add that I agree housing is one important issue. I know recently from New Brunswick, and I've worked with first nations chiefs for the last three years there, that housing constantly comes up. I think it's not so much an issue of procurement, honestly. It may be in the more northern regions of Canada, but certainly in most of the southern regions funding is the key issue.

In many communities, two or three households share a space that in non-indigenous communities would be normally occupied by one household. Many children often live in that space. It contributes to the other issues you've talked about. Actually, I think it contributes to issues relating to sexual abuse as well. It's just not acceptable in this country for people to live in those conditions.

In my view, funding is a far greater issue than procurement.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Thank you.

I'm going to ask if the committee is open to taking the next few minutes to deal with some committee business.