Evidence of meeting #47 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was money.
A video is available from Parliament.
10:25 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The only potential areas of surplus are those we have already discussed, that is, votes that have to reprofiled to next year, including those for residential schools and regulations.
As to the actual expenditures that were allocated for this year, my primary responsibility is to make sure we do not exceed the amounts allocated. I am confident that we will do that.
10:25 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
The plane will land as scheduled without incident.
Thank you for your question.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk
We're moving now to five-minute rounds. We'll start with MP Cathy McLeod.
10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Mr. Viersen very kindly agreed to give me one minute of his time.
I have a quick follow-up. Certainly, you've talked about the public accounts, and I think it's really unfortunate that it gets stated the way it is, because it often leads to those headlines that a billion dollars was not spent for communities.... Truly, I think a simple change to that would be to say, “This was the true amount unspent, and this is the amount that has been re-profiled.” It would not be a big change. To be quite frank, I'm not sure why we haven't done that, because the way the amounts are stated now really does create misperceptions out there about what we're doing.
To Treasury Board, you certainly would have my support to be a little clearer in that particular reporting structure.
Having said that, we've talked about the $100 million that has been administratively frozen. You gave some, I think, reasonable explanations, but what we don't have.... I am asking if you could table specifically for that $100 million what has been frozen and why it has been frozen. I don't expect that here today, but I think we need to be able to see what was not spent, why it was not spent, and its re-profiling for next year, versus what truly has lapsed. That's my one request to you.
10:30 a.m.
Chief Financial Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Thank you very much.
We have that table, and we would be very pleased to table it with the committee for the benefit of all members.
10:30 a.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
To our guests today, thank you, first of all, for being here. This is much appreciated. I'm still learning about the supplementary (C)s and things like that, learning where it all goes. It's always interesting.
Perhaps you could lay this out for me a little bit. At the beginning of the year, we put out a budget. Is there an easier way to watch it flow out other than this? It seems like we have the budget here and the expenditures there. Nothing seems to line up.
Is there a place I can go where it lines up a little bit easier and we can see the money flowing out?
10:30 a.m.
Chief Financial Officer, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Thank you for the question.
I believe the minister in previous appearances, and in her opening remarks, talked about how, from her vantage point of being a parliamentarian for so many years, the current estimates process does not work in providing the clarity that you've noted. That's why, in the President of the Treasury Board's mandate letter, he is charged with reforming the estimates.
My understanding is that the President of the Treasury Board and his officials are engaged with the public accounts committee on a reform process and trying to understand what reporting structure would, as a previous member has cited, would work best for purposes of alignment. Some of the options that are being discussed, as I understand it, between the public accounts committee and the Treasury Board are things like trying to ensure that when the budget is tabled, the main estimates, when eventually tabled, include substantially more of those budget announcements so that we can try to minimize for parliamentarians the disconnect between the main estimates and the budget.
That's just one option that is being discussed. They're talking about trying to deal with the public accounts reporting so that, as another member mentioned, these notions of gross lapses don't give an unfair picture of the degree of funding. But it is a bit of a conundrum. There have been some experiments done in other jurisdictions, such as Ontario and Australia, which are also being looked at in terms of alignment. However, I will defer to the public accounts committee on works best for Parliament going forward.
10:30 a.m.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
All right.
I guess I'll just express a little bit of displeasure at the fact that there doesn't seem to have been any work done on accounting for how the carbon tax will affect INAC. The largest community in my riding is the town of Whitecourt, and the carbon tax, with just very easy targets, will cost them next year $120,000 more in fuel and natural gas costs. The town said that was the piece they could easily identify. They know that last year they used this much diesel fuel, this much natural gas, so the price will go up by this amount. They can see exactly what it will be.
They also said there are a lot of hidden costs with the carbon taxes. For anything that is shipped in, they don't know what the costs will be. They know that there will be an increased cost, but they don't know what it will be.
Thank you.
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
Rémi Massé Liberal Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I would like to go back to the issue of funding as committed to under the Jordan principle. I raise this issue because a number of witnesses have expressed concern about the amounts allocated as compared to actual expenditures.
In the documents to which our colleague Mr. Saganash referred, it says that $11.4 million of the allocated budget has been spent, and that some 1,500 claims have been processed.
You are requesting an additional $1 million in the Supplementary Estimates. Can you tell me how this additional million dollars will be used, bearing in mind the budget and the expenditures that have been made?
10:35 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
There are two things that should not be confused. It is true that $88 million were set aside to be sure there was enough money on hand. We must remember that, when the definition of the Jordan principle was broadened in July, it was hard to know where we were starting from.
Together with Health Canada—since the costs are mostly covered by Health Canada—, we decided to be cautious so we would not run out of money during the year. So we set aside $88 million. To date, we have spent approximately $11.9 million, but we are also expecting additional invoices at a later date. So that amount will probably increase.
As to the million dollars, it is a transfer for the part related to the Indigenous and Northern Affairs mandate. That is so the claimant does not have to wonder whether to apply to Indigenous and Northern Affairs or Health Canada. The $88 million is pooled funding. Then it depends on the expenditures that are required. We can be responsible for a program that provides housing assistance or supports other activities within our mandate.
In our case, we needed $1 million of that $11.9 million for our own expenditures. Most of the expenditures pertain to health. Otherwise they can include modifying a house or widening a door so a wheelchair can get through, things like that. Our part in the Supplementary Estimates (C) it is that one million.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Rémi Massé Liberal Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
You referred to it but I would like to hear more about the coordination mechanism used to make sure that the money is properly utilized. What is the coordination mechanism between your department and Health Canada to make sure these funds are well distributed and are used to achieve the stated objectives?
10:35 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
In practical terms, people can go into any regional office of Indigenous and Northern Affairs or Health Canada. There is also a telephone information line.
When that information is received and a case is identified, it is confirmed at the outset that the money will be given and the funding provided. We then make arrangements behind the scenes.
The idea behind the Jordan principle was to make this as simple as possible. In the past, people had to knock on several doors, while we were left wondering who should intervene.
We have stopped all that. People go in one door and then...
we sort it out among ourselves.
The individual, the user, receives the service regardless of where they request it and regardless of whether it is a health service or a service from Indigenous and Northern Affairs. Then we reconcile our accounts. It is like a...
client-focused service as opposed to being a jurisdictional-focused service.
That is probably the harshest criticism that was made about the way it used to be administered.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Rémi Massé Liberal Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
In recent months, have you observed whether this mechanism, which seems to be simpler, has made it possible to increase the number of children receiving this service, which seems to be more streamlined and effective?
10:35 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
If I recall correctly, before July, there were just 10 or 11 cases. Now, there are over 3,000 children.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk
Thank you very much.
That concludes our round of questions. Thank you for coming forward and being prepared with those answers.
I believe there are a couple of information pieces that are going to come through to members through the clerk.
Is that how it normally works?
Okay, the clerk will follow up with you.
