Evidence of meeting #61 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was status.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Martin Reiher  Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Karl Jacques  Senior Counsel, Operations and Programs, Department of Justice
Nathalie Nepton  Executive Director, Indian Registration and Integrated Program Management, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Candice St-Aubin  Executive Director, New Service Offerings, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
David Schulze  Legal Counsel, Council of the Abenaki of Odanak
Stéphane Descheneaux  As an Individual
Rick O'Bomsawin  Chief, Council of the Abenaki of Odanak
Francyne Joe  Interim President, Native Women's Association of Canada
Drew Lafond  Director, Board of Directors, Indigenous Bar Association
Lynne Groulx  Executive Director, Native Women's Association of Canada
Courtney Skye  Director of Strategic Policy, Native Women's Association of Canada

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to our committee.

I would like to start by saying that we are on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people and that these lands are unceded.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Wednesday, October 26, 2016, the committee is resuming its study on the subject matter of Bill S-3, an act to amend the Indian Act (elimination of sex-based inequities in registration).

On another matter, we did not receive many witness suggestions from committee members for the study on specific claims and comprehensive land claims, so I propose that we extend the deadline to June 8 for you to forward, to the clerk, witnesses and site visits.

Ms. McLeod.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Madam Chair, on that particular point, as you know, of course, we're seized with Bill S-3 and the suicide study. We're not looking at the land claim initiative until into the fall. I propose that we perhaps extend that deadline even a little bit further. I think that would allow for some opportunity to get some strong witnesses. I don't see any negatives to perhaps looking at a two-week extension from your proposed date.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

The clerk is suggesting that if we have a deadline, we're more likely to meet it.

That said, we have been really very busy. Two weeks from today would make it June 20, according to the clerk. Does June 20 seem reasonable?

Mr. Bossio.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Do we so far have enough witnesses to get us started on the study?

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

No.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Okay. Very good.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

MP Anandasangaree.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

I concur with Ms. McLeod. Given our timelines, I think it's probably appropriate that we extend it by two weeks.

Then I wonder if we could maybe do a conference call on this in early July, maybe an hour call, just to figure that out. I don't think we need to actually meet. If we could all agree to a call during July, I think that might be workable.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

MP Bossio.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

I was going to suggest the following. If we have witnesses, and I'm sure the clerk and the analysts can come up with witnesses for us as well, then I don't really see that there is a huge rush. It could wait until we come back, if need be. If there are suggestions from the different members in the fall, we could bring those suggestions forward at that time as well.

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

I think it's about preparation, because we're on the road.

At any rate, I hear the recommendations. We'll come back with further details.

We do have witnesses in front of us. I'm anxious to respect their time and to ensure that they have an ability to present to committee.

Without further ado, then, we have in front of us the Department of Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We have four representatives from the department.

Welcome, everybody. Following the regular way in which the committee operates, you have 10 minutes for opening remarks.

I'll turn it over to you.

8:50 a.m.

Martin Reiher Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Thank you, Madam Chair and honourable members.

My name is Martin Reiher, and I am the assistant deputy minister of resolution and individual affairs at the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. Joining me today are: Candice St-Aubin, executive director, new service offerings; Nathalie Nepton, executive director, Indian registration; as well as Karl Jacques, from the Department of Justice.

Thank you for the opportunity to give you an update on the government's response to the Superior Court of Quebec's decision in the Descheneaux case and bring you up to date on new developments since your last meeting on this bill, which was held on November 21 of last year.

As you will recall, in August 2015 the Superior Court of Québec ruled, in the Descheneaux decision, that key Indian registration provisions affecting 90% of the registered Indian population under the Indian Act contravened the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms by perpetuating differential treatment in entitlement to Indian registration between a woman and a man and their respective descendants.

In response to that decision, the government announced a two-stage approach. The first stage involves legislative amendments through Bill S-3, which will be followed by a process on broader issues related to registration. That will be a collaborative process with first nations and other indigenous groups.

Bill S-3, introduced in the Senate on October 25, 2016, will remedy situations of known sex-based inequities in registration. For the purposes of Bill S-3 we refer to known sex-based inequities as situations that are solely sex-based and have been found to be discriminatory by the courts or are similar to such situations. Bill S-3 is therefore not restricted to situations in which a court has already ruled but extends to situations in which the courts have yet to rule and where it is clear that a sex-based charter would be found.

During the deliberations of your committee and of the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples, witnesses and members of both committees expressed concerns about whether BillS-3 addressed all possible situations of sex-based inequities, as well as concerns regarding the level of engagement with first nations and impacted individuals. The Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples suspended the study of the bill and requested that the government seek an extension to continue engagement on issues within the scope of the bill.

On January 20, 2017, the Superior Court of Quebec granted a five-month extension to remedy the discrimination identified in the Descheneaux case.

That extension has enabled us to begin a mobilization process and ensure that justice will be done as quickly as possible for some 35,000 individuals who will become eligible for Indian registration once Bill S-3 is passed.

As part of a letter sent to you on February 6, 2017, we shared with you a four-tiered action plan that was developed to guide the engagement activities during the short period of time provided by the court, a plan that built on the engagement sessions held in the fall.

I would now like to provide you with an overview of additional engagement activities that were held. The government was able to conduct 10 additional engagement sessions from January through April 2017. Bilateral discussions were held with the Canadian Bar Association, the Aboriginal Legal Services, and the Feminist Alliance for International Action.

The department provided support to the Native Women's Association of Canada to design and lead a series of engagement sessions with its provincial and territorial member associations, and their report was provided to this committee. The department also provided support to the Indigenous Bar Association to complete a review of the bill to identify situations of sex-based inequities not captured originally in the bill. The report was also shared with this committee.

Finally, technical discussions were held with legal representatives from the Assembly of First Nations, the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, the Native Women's Association of Canada, the Indigenous Bar Association, and the plaintiffs' legal counsel in the Descheneaux case.

We know that even with this extension, there was not enough time to truly consult, and we acknowledge the tremendous effort and long hours that organizations put into this work. We heard about a wide range of issues through these different fora, some within the scope of Bill S-3 and others falling outside.

What is evident from these discussions is that people are very passionate and committed to addressing issues of inequity in administration. At the same time, it was highlighted that jurisdiction over Indian registration and band membership should not remain under the government's control.

As mentioned earlier, we provided support to the IBA and NWAC to review the bill. In their reports, issues such as unstated paternity and the 1951 cut-off were flagged, as well as amendments to avoid inequities that would be created by Bill S-3 in its original state.

The government has heard recommendations from this extended engagement regarding outstanding sex-based inequities. During the study of the bill at the Senate committee we welcomed a number of important amendments to the bill, which now addresses some of the situations flagged.

Amendments were made to address further groups identified by the IBA that would be discriminated against based on sex if the original bill had been passed. The committee also adopted an amendment to the bill regarding the issue of unstated paternity, which will enshrine into legislation additional procedural protection as contemplated by the Ontario Court of Appeal in the Gehl decision.

The committee passed a series of amendments to report back to Parliament on a number of occasions and in a number of ways to provide an update on progress towards broader reform.

Lastly, I would like to speak to the amendment—referred to as 6(1)(a) “all the way”—adopted in committee, adding subparagraphs (a.1) and (a.2) to a new paragraph 6(1)(a) of the current Indian Act.

The government is unable to support this amendment, first because as drafted it is unclear and in contradiction with some of the provisions of the Indian Act, and second because its intended effect puts it outside the scope of Bill S-3, which is deemed as addressing known sex-based inequities. The amendment, in fact, contradicts the current state of the law by granting a remedy explicitly rejected by the Court of Appeal of British Columbia in its 2009 McIvor decision as not being in line with charter requirements.

The amendment is also in contradiction to subparagraph 6(1)(c.1)(iv) of the Indian Act, a provision that was not struck down by the courts in the Descheneaux case and is still in the Indian Act.

Moreover, by purporting to provide an entitlement to registration to all direct descendants born prior to 1985 of individuals previously entitled under the old Indian Act, the intended effect of the amendment would affect descendants of individuals who were enfranchised not only due to marriage but also for reasons unrelated to their gender.

Finally, the amendment would not appear to grant membership to the individuals it targets.

Such a broad amendment casts the net much wider than what is required to achieve the goal of Bill S-3 and would have wide-ranging, unforeseen implications. More work is required to understand the implications, and we wish to have more discussions with first nations partners on the best way to address these broader issues.

To that end, stage two will begin, following the coming into force of Bill S-3, and will be the opportunity to examine the broader issues relating to registration, membership, and citizenship, with the objective of identifying options for future reform.

In conclusion, I would like to highlight the consequences of not passing the bill before the revised court deadline of July 3. Let's not lose sight of the individuals directly affected by this bill. About 90% of the registered Indian population is registered under one of the provisions struck down by the court in Descheneaux. As you know, if Bill S-3 is not in force on July 3, these sections will be inoperative in Quebec, and the practical implication for the registrar is that she would not be in a position to register people under those provisions in the rest of the country.

We must ensure that we do not deny justice to the plaintiffs and to the other 35,000 individuals affected by the decision, while also ensuring that meaningful consultation with indigenous groups is conducted adequately to address other complex matters. Consistent with Canada's commitment to reconciliation and a nation-to-nation relationship with indigenous people, the minister gave her personal commitment to co-designing a process with indigenous people, including communities, impacted individuals, organizations, and experts to deliver a substantive report.

Thank you.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Thank you very much.

We now move into the questioning period of the hearing. Each questioner's period will be of seven minutes in total rotation, and we'll go through four questioners in this round, beginning with MP Massé.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Rémi Massé Liberal Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the department officials for joining us to testify during the study on Bill S-3.

I would like to begin with the bill's objectives and with what led to its creation. As we all know, in August 2015, the Superior Court of Quebec ruled that paragraphs 6(1)(a), 6(1)(c) and 6(1)(f), as well as subsection 6(2) of the Indian Act violated equality rights guaranteed under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms because they created a differential treatment between maternal and paternal lines in the acquisition and transmission of Indian status. The court made a declaration of invalidity, which was suspended for 18 months and was then extended, as you mentioned, until July 3, 2017, to enable Parliament to pass the legislative amendments needed to bring the act into line with the charter.

Here's my first question. On what basis did the Superior Court of Quebec find that section 6 of the Indian Act violated the equality provisions of the charter?

9 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Martin Reiher

Thank you for the question.

The Superior Court of Quebec was basically dealing with two situations.

The first was the situation of the plaintiff Stéphane Descheneaux, who was affected by what is referred to as the “cousins issue”. He was unable to transmit Indian status to his children in the way a descendent of a man in the same situation as his own would be able to.

The “cousins issue” was first dealt with by the British Columbia Court of Appeal, in 2009, in the McIvor case and partially resolved through Bill C-3 in 2010.

However, at the time, the situation was not fully resolved, and Mr. Descheneaux's situation was not addressed. In his situation, there remained a difference between maternal and paternal lines. The situation was deemed to be contrary to section 15, as it constituted a distinction that was not justifiable under section 1 of the charter.

The second situation is that of the two Yantha women, mother and daughter. That situation involves what is referred to as the “siblings issue”. In the legislation that preceded the act of 1985, legitimate female women and children born to an Indian father, but out of wedlock, were not eligible for Indian registration. That situation was remedied by the act of 1985, but in such a way that there remained a distinction between paternal and maternal lines. Those women's ability to transmit Indian status was different from that of their male counterparts. Once again, that distinction based on gender was found to violate section 15 of the charter. So those two situations are remedied by Bill S-3.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Rémi Massé Liberal Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Can you explain to us what can happen if the proposed amendments do not come into force by the July 3 deadline? Explain to us the impacts that could have, based on the decision rendered.

9 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Martin Reiher

As you said, the Superior Court of Quebec declared paragraphs 6(1)(a), 6(1)(c) and 6(1)(f), and subsection 6(2) to be invalid. Those provisions enable the registration of 90% of applicants every year. About 28,000 registration applications are filed per year. With those provisions being invalid, if the bill was not enacted by the end of the suspension period and the declaration became effective, the registrar would be unable to register anyone under those provisions, which cover, as I said, 90% of situations. Of course, we have heard that the decision is valid and applies to Quebec, since it was rendered by a provincial court.

That said, for a national program like the Indian Register, it would not be appropriate for the registrar to apply different rules to different provinces. That would obviously create a set of different rules and would likely be subject to litigation in the other provinces.

So the registrar cannot reasonably apply provisions deemed invalid in Quebec to people from outside Quebec. If the bill was not in force, the registrar would completely discontinue registrations, until new rules giving him the authority to continue with registrations came into effect.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Rémi Massé Liberal Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you.

How much time do I have left, Madam Chair?

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

You have one minute.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Rémi Massé Liberal Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

I will be quick.

In its ruling, the Superior Court of Quebec advised Parliament not to restrict legislative changes to the exact circumstances outlined in the case, but rather to take steps “to identify and settle all other discriminatory situations that may arise from the issue identified...”.

Can you comment on the current approach of addressing only sex-based inequities, and compare it to the more general approach proposed by the court?

9:05 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Martin Reiher

Okay. Thank you for the question.

In paragraph 243 of her decision, the judge said that the legislator should adopt a broader approach and quickly resolve the plaintiffs' situation. That is what the government's approach consists of. It consists of two stages, the first of which is about resolving the plaintiffs' situation and handling issues that can be remedied quickly. The second step concerns more complicated situations, which require more discussions and consultations with first nations. This is an elaborate process that makes it possible to properly and thoroughly consult first nations, as well as affected individuals.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Thank you.

The questioning now moves to MP Cathy McLeod.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Certainly, I see some improvements from the original form of the bill, with some of the government's proposed amendments, especially reporting back on stage two and some others.

I think we really have a difficult issue before us that we need to focus on. Of course, back with McIvor, I believe that the current minister was the critic of Indigenous Affairs and actually proposed the 6(1)(a) all-in amendment, at that time. In the Senate, she told them very directly that she would not support 6(1)(a) all in, but as I understand, the Senate unanimously voted for that particular clause. We are receiving this bill with 6(1)(a) all in, so I think we need to really focus on that particular issue.

I guess my first question, before I look at 6(1)(a) all in.... With the changes you made around the issue, such as unstated paternity, how did that impact the numbers and dollars you were going to have allocated to the budget—or were those numbered crunched? If you could give quick responses, I'd really appreciate it. With the changes that have been accepted, since you presented a few months ago with numbers, did you change the projected numbers and dollars that would be transferred?

9:05 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Resolution and Individual Affairs Sector, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development

Martin Reiher

I will remind the committee that in the fall economic statement of 2016, $149 million was set aside for the implementation of Bill S-3, including $19 million for the—

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Sorry, that's not the question. Since you have some new amendments, did the budget adapt to that?