Evidence of meeting #70 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was manitoba.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chief Sheila North Wilson  Grand Chief, Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak Inc.
Chief Arlen Dumas  Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs
Chief Nelson Genaille  President, Treaty Land Entitlement Committee of Manitoba Inc.
Jim Bear  Chief, Brokenhead Ojibway Nation
Lance Roulette  Chief, Sandy Bay First Nation
Lorie Thompson  Legal counsel, Brokenhead Ojibway Nation
Jason Madden  Legal Counsel, Manitoba Metis Federation Inc.
Ronald Robillard  Chief Negotiator, Athabasca Denesuline Né Né Land Corporation
Wayne Wysocki  Representative, Ghotelnene K’odtineh Dene
Benji Denechezhe  Chief Negotiator, Northlands Denesuline First Nation
Geoff Bussidor  Chief Negotiator, Sayisi Dene First Nation
Barry Hunter  Negotiations Advisor, Athabasca Denesuline Né Né Land Corporation

8:45 a.m.

Grand Chief, Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak Inc.

Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson

I think we'd have to go line by line to do that, but I think in the overall picture there are some gaps. We do see some benefits to the communities, for instance when you go through some place like Nisichawayasihk, where the most recent building they have is the interpretative centre. You walk in and you see it looks like a beautiful museum, a northern style museum. It's very modern, very informative.

Also with that building, they house the community kitchens, where hunters from the community come and they bring there what they hunt and fish, and then it's shared equally with the community or the people who want it.

When our people and our leaders and our technicians in this day and age find a way to implement those kinds of initiatives, they fully maximize them. But, for instance, one part of the agreement is to have youth centres in every community, the ones that are affected by the MFA, but we don't have such buildings.

We hear about the suicide rates that came out recently from Pimicikamak, which created a national dialogue on suicide. One of the most basic things they have asked for is a youth building for them to have as their own, so that they can do their own activities. That was part of the MFA that asked for and agreed upon, and it still hasn't been implemented.

We would have to look line by line at the items that were promised and that have not been upheld, but of course those don't include all the other ones that are not part of the MFA. For example, in Shamattawa, they're having trouble with the schooling and finding teachers to come there. I think if there were a better implementation of their treaty rights, we would see a different situation there.

That's one of the extreme examples but, of course, our other 30 communities have different perspectives and rights to the land and opportunities that they are being denied continuously.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC

Okay.

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Sorry, Cathy.

We now move to MP Romeo Saganash.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Romeo Saganash NDP Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

Meegwetch.

[Member speaks in Cree ]

I think all of you talked about the policies and about how these policies do not necessarily respond to the challenges that we have, either in treaty implementation or in terms of the other issues that we face as first nations.

I have to tell you first, Nelson, that when you welcomed the grandchildren of the settlers, I did not feel welcome at all.

Sheila, when you talked about broken promises, even if I said to you, “Welcome, to the club,” it would be a bad joke.

I just want to acknowledge those two things first.

I'll ask the question that Gary asked, but from a different perspective.

You all talked about UNDRIP and the importance of having the UN declaration as a framework for moving forward in this country. I think we all agree, and I thank you for your full support for my private member's bill. That's exactly what Bill C-262 intends to do. Whatever we work on in the future, whether it's on treaty implementation or land recognition or rights recognition and so on, those need to be the minimum standards that we will have to use moving forward.

I'll ask my question in the opposite way from how Gary did.

Do we therefore need a policy for all of these things we are discussing today, or would it be simpler to use an instrument like the UN declaration or the jurisprudence that stems from the Supreme Court of Canada?

There are a lot of decisions that respond to a lot of the challenges that we're talking about, so is there a need for a policy? That is perhaps the first question I want to ask all three of you.

8:50 a.m.

Grand Chief, Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak Inc.

Grand Chief Sheila North Wilson

I'll start.

[Witness speaks in Cree]

I could hear and understand your different dialect, and I was very excited about that, because I was listening very closely. This is another educational moment here: we have different dialects of Cree. All four of us speak Cree, but we all have different dialects, and I have to listen particularly hard to Romeo Saganash.

Thank you for the welcome, and thank you for being here and representing Cree people at this committee.

Your bill, Bill C-262 is necessary because if that's what the governments need to find a way to practicalize the treaties, then let it be. I think that's what it is for a lot of us. If the treaties are too broad, too basic, or too vague, then have a tool like UNDRIP to set the process. I see hope in this. I think we have to fully implement it to start working at these deeper issues that are outstanding, and ultimately bring our people up to a modern day civilization where we're self-reliant. Thank you for that. I do believe that's the avenue we need to follow to take us to that next level.

Back then, we needed a process like that. Our people say that when the treaty-making process was happening, and even recently in the seventies with the MFA, our people weren't in the mindset of negotiating to those specifics, and a lot of it was in good faith. Grand Chief Dumas talks about our kindness all the time, and that's basically what our ancestors were going on. It is the basic human ability to tell the truth, to be kind, and to actually live up to your word. That's what our ancestors relied upon, but now we know how far that's taken us, and that broken relationship needs to be mended. We can't just go on basic human abilities. We have to have something like UNDRIP to take us to the next level.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

You have about one minute left.

8:55 a.m.

President, Treaty Land Entitlement Committee of Manitoba Inc.

Grand Chief Nelson Genaille

To answer that, on the eve of Canada's 150th celebration, 143 years after the signing of Treaty 4, Canada has to remove itself from this specific claim process and from identifying itself as the one that will to improve it. We should jointly recommend it to the UN for implementation, because Canada, through its grandchildren, has benefited.

My nation and my children, the generation after mine, have yet to benefit.

8:55 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Grand Chief Arlen Dumas

I want to comment on that to my honourable colleagues—

September 27th, 2017 / 8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

He can take some of my time.

Give as full an answer as you like.

8:55 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Grand Chief Arlen Dumas

Thank you very much.

I appreciate that, because it's important. It's a very important question. I think that essentially it's a political question, and you never need policy or law to do the right thing or to do things in an honourable way, but unfortunately, if that is what the Government of Canada requires, then I believe we should have a wholehearted change to that process and develop something that will facilitate and force things to move in a direction that will benefit everyone.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

That's very good.

Questioning now goes to you, MP Mike Bossio.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

I'd like to take that a little further, because I look at one of the successful agreements—Romeo and I have spoken about this and we talked about this in B.C. as well—the Quebec agreement that was established in 1975 and the 20-some iterations that have occurred as a result of that

How could UNDRIP inform the process? As you said, it's always great to be able to do the right things. To negotiate is the right thing to do, and we know that in reality every time we do that it, ends up blowing up in our faces, because today's group of politicians may say they agree with this, and let's do it, and then the election comes along and another group of politicians come in and say they understand this to be this way. So there does need to be some level of formalization.

Using UNDRIP and the example of the Northern Cree agreement in Quebec, what can we formalize even when there's a change of government, whether it's provincial or federal, to ensure we're going to find successful resolution to these issues once and for all? We know it's going to take more than one term.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

You only have one minute left.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

Oh, shoot. Go ahead, please.

8:55 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

Grand Chief Arlen Dumas

I think that if there are willing partners, magic can happen. If people truly want to make a meaningful effort, I think we should all take a look at the successes of Nunavut over the last 30 years.

I think my relatives in Quebec are fundamentally a great example of meaningful.... It was by force, but it turned out to be meaningful. People have to be made to see a certain vision and put mechanisms in place that are going to make that happen.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that it's going to be the legal system, because the legal system will side with Canada before it will side with anybody else. We need to move in a different direction, because unfortunately, Canada will uphold industry before rights of Canadians.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Mike Bossio Liberal Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON

That's why I figure we need to formalize it.

9 a.m.

Grand Chief, Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

We'll have a final comment from Chief Genaille.

9 a.m.

President, Treaty Land Entitlement Committee of Manitoba Inc.

Grand Chief Nelson Genaille

To conclude, after 20 years, we're halfway done.

When this was originally signed back in my community, we went to the town of Swan River. We had an open-house meeting with farmers, private landowners. They increased the price we negotiated within this book. And as we moved along, 10 years after the signing, I'll explain one specific story. A Polish farmer who came to a community's territory selling 100 acres of land. That's about a million bucks. We could not afford it, because what was negotiated was $197 an acre, but the community decided to buy it on one condition.

So they asked the farmer if he would sell it with this condition.

The farmer said he'd think about it, and asked about the condition.

They said they'd buy his land and he'd go back to where he came from.

He put his head down, thought about it, and asked where he should sign.

Are you willing to do that too? Then we'll have no problems.

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

All right. There's something to ponder.

9 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

No one said Manitoba would be easy.

Thank you so much. That was the first panel. You gave us a lot to think about.

Last night we did a tour led by the treaty commissioner. It went past Kapyong, through the main street strip, through some of the challenges that we see our indigenous people face day to day: standing in line to be fed, to have decent clothes. There is a lack of housing. The MPs and the staff here had an opportunity to see that briefly, but we understand that the relationship needs review and needs to be fixed. We're very grateful that you came to present today to our committee once again. I'm sure you've done this many times in the past. But as you say, with goodwill we can make change happen, and that's why we're back at the table: to learn and listen, and hopefully make a significant change.

Meegwetch. Thank you very much for coming out to this session.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

Welcome, everybody. We're starting a little bit late, so we'll cut into our next break time to be sure we're given a full hour for this session.

I want to first recognize our panellists and thank them for coming out to present to us on the issue of land claims, comprehensive and specific.

In this session we will have an opportunity to hear from you—10 minutes from Brokenhead and 10 minutes from Sandy Bay. How you want to split that is up to you. After that, we will have an opportunity for questions from the members of Parliament.

I'm turning it over to you, and you can decide who wishes to start.

9:15 a.m.

Chief Jim Bear Chief, Brokenhead Ojibway Nation

Thank you very much, and welcome to Treaty 1 territory. I would have preferred the forum to be held on the Brokenhead Ojibway Nation or even Sandy Bay First Nation. However, I was one of the signatories to the Treaty Land Entitlement Framework Agreement in 1997, and I was also first chair of treaty land entitlement in 1977. I wear this ring very proudly, but I'd feel a lot better if we reached conclusion one of these days soon.

Our nationhood, of course, consists of sovereignty and self-determination through our land and borders, our citizens, our language, our cultural identity, our governing bodies, our laws, our judicial system, and an economic base. The loss of our land is the main focus through the claims process, but it doesn't consider the loss of our governance, the loss of our law, our ability, our language, our identity, our culture, our spirituality, and our economic base of hunting, fishing, trapping, and gathering. The model should have been the Selkirk Treaty of 1817. It conforms to the spirit of the Royal Proclamation of 1763, which provided the constitutional framework for indigenous land entitlement and has been referred to as Canada's Indian Magna Carta.

The crown needs to honour the visionary leadership and friendship such as that of Chief Peguis and Lord Selkirk that led to the signing of the 1817 treaty. The settler communities have failed to honour the full spirit and intent of the subsequent treaties. In agreeing to its terms, Chief Peguis and Lord Selkirk promoted peace, order, and a spirit of mutual assistance and co-operation, which is at the foundation of Manitoba's unique history. At the signing, Chief Peguis allotted a certain area for the settlers; the rest was ours, and our laws were to continue to prevail.

However, in August 1871, our nation became signatory to Treaty No.1. With this signing, the promise was made that the consensus would be carried out and the land would be allocated to our nation on a per capita basis, 160 acres per family of five. Our nation is located only 40 minutes from Fort Garry, where our ancestors signed Treaty No.1. With the initial land allocation, our nation was allocated 13,184 acres, and a shortfall of more than double the land base our nation had been entitled to be allocated was created.

Today, only 30% can be readily developed, and the remainder is marsh area. Our nation, along with half of the Indian bands in Manitoba, became signatory to the 1997 Treaty Land Entitlement Framework Agreement in September 1998. Through this framework agreement, Brokenhead became entitled to receive an additional 14,481 acres to address the shortfall from 127 years prior. We have yet to obtain and convert over 13,000 acres to reserve status, and in between addressing our land allocation shortfall, other parts of our land were taken for the purposes of the railway, provincial Highway 59, and a hydro transmission line, all of which we are still working to resolve. Brokenhead is currently addressing the claim through the specific claims process for the railway, railway station grounds, and hydro transmission line, which currently involve 111.7 acres of our land. Other areas of our land have either been or still are occupied by the churches and the Hudson's Bay Company.

We also live in an era in which we are forced to create satellite reserves and jump through the endless reserve-creation hoops that continue to delay our use and the benefit of our land.

Our nation works hard to address the legacy and resolution of our treaty, per capita shortfalls, land selection, acquisition, third party interests, municipal relations, reserve creation through the additions-to-reserve policy, and the loss of use and opportunities of our land. We settled a claim through the pre-tribunal specific claims process in 1985. We settled for 210 acres, and this settlement did not represent the loss of use and opportunities, nor of any other additional losses. Quantifying the impact of losses is a lengthy and costly exercise that doesn't consider all the other losses I previously identified.

When we had our oral history evidentiary hearing in our nation, the hearing environment was very adversarial. One elder who provided oral historic knowledge was challenged by a mainstream technical and time-scientific position by the crown. One elder stated afterwards in private that, “The crown really worked hard to make a fool out of me.” I was so embarrassed for having put him in that position. I even almost felt like saying, “I am guilty.”

The funding process does not realistically consider the efforts required by a first nation to participate in the specific claims process fairly. Expensive time is spent by our community staff and leadership to come together to determine what, if any, evidence can be uncovered within our nation. When our nation is involved in this kind of land claims process, we require additional time and resources in order to reassure our nation's citizens that we're not losing or giving up any more land due to crown-first nation legacy issues.

The current process requires our first nation to submit a budget proposal to Canada that narrowly states the total actual costs of the process, which does not consider supporting the community-involved process undertaken to attempt to provide our historical evidence.

Legal processes and legal representation are prioritized rather than the potential contributions of our nation. As well, there are staff changes with Canada. Then our file is further delayed because of lack of communication. There doesn't appear to be any succession planning so that our file will continue to proceed.

It's very concerning that a majority of claims are not yet settled through the tribunal. As the delay proceeds, there are many missed opportunities, and loss of use, potential growth, and betterment of the nation are impaired.

BON increasingly continues to experience a negative impact of the historical taking of our lands for purposes such as railway transportation and hydroelectricity. BON is working very hard to catch up to the progress that has been made by our treaty counterparts during the past 146 years. As you have heard, we have been attempting to do this, basically with the same land base we were originally allocated in 1871.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal MaryAnn Mihychuk

You have one minute.