Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Sept. 29th, 2017

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

We've heard on numerous occasions that policy doesn't go far enough—Grand Chief Benedict may want to jump in on this as well—and that we need to put in place legislative mechanisms and tools or instruments to ensure that negotiations occur in good faith or to better lay out how the tribunal process, etc., works. Have you been able to do much research on that side?

Between you, Phillipp and Grand Chief, are there some legislative changes or some guidance that you think could be delivered to the government? What do they look like? Or could you perhaps provide that in a separate submission?

[Phillip White-Cree]

That would have to be in relation to recommendations. One area that does have a lot of recommendations is national claims research directors. They do have multiple suggestions to have a joint implementation process for policies that would guide that relationship.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Mr. Bossio, you have about a minute left.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay.

Chief Laforme, perhaps you could comment in terms of what they have going on there. How is that reflected within your own community?

[Chief Stacey Laforme]

I can't go into the big spiel I'd normally give you about this, because she'd cut me off again.

First off, our department of consultation started off with one person three years ago. Now it's at nine people in the office and 40 people in the field. It sustains itself and brings revenue back in. We're looking to form partnerships with other cities and people now to do some of the work that's required. We are creating our own environmental regulations and our own standards. We began that work about a year ago. We have created our water committee. They are looking at evaluation tools of our own for the waters, and monitoring systems, so that we will not be reliant on anybody else for those. We will be using our own systems to determine impacts and that type of thing.

That's been our undertaking, although it may not be on the scale that they have. We have also started an outreach, or what we call an ambassadorship program, where a member or somebody, a friend of ours, will be the ambassador to a city or to different areas within our lands. They'll go out and educate and promote.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

How much debt have you had to accumulate in the negotiation process?

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

Over the course of the Dundee land claim, probably about $150,000 per year. That's over and above what was already provided.

[Chief Stacey Laforme]

I can't recall the amount off the top of my head, but it's enormous. We're in debt always because we use our own resources all the time. We tie that with what we get from Canada, and we use our own, so they're sort of meshed together. It's an exorbitant amount of money just to do what we talked about with the environmental stewardship, with the ambassadorship program. We're reaching out to the government now, but there's been no funding this year for anything.

[Mike Bossio, Liberal, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

MP Waugh.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

You mentioned that you're not interested in money, but it is about the money, right? You've just talked about your debt. I know you're talking about land and water, but it's also about the money.

Grand Chief Benedict, you said you're not interested in money, but you do need the money. We just talked about your financial situation.

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

Well, who in here doesn't need the money? It places us in a difficult situation, because when we go to the community, the community wants to expand the territory in which we live. They know that traditionally we lived in the Dundee area, then at some point the Government of Canada did us wrong and gave the land to other people. They know that. As our communities continue to expand, continue to grow, we look for economic opportunities. What makes more sense than to have the land base to do that?

At the end of the day, only the government is in a position to offer money for what is going on. On the ground, when I go to my community, they tell me that it doesn't matter how much money the government is offering—they want the land back. So it puts community leadership in a difficult position.

Is there a money aspect? Absolutely. But it would make more sense if the money and the land aspects could coincide at some point.

[Chief Stacey Laforme]

Of course it's about money. One of the problems I had in the settlement of the last claim was that, according to the requirement of the day, when you take this to a vote you also have to vote on whether to accept the negotiation process. Also, there is the trust situation and how it's set up. In the trust situation, it's outlined if there's going to be a payment to the membership. So it becomes a question of whether you're really voting in favour of the settlement or whether you're voting for it just because you need the money. That's a terrible thing to have to take to the community in that way. There has to be a way to separate that out in the process.

The money aspect I think is important, but what is also important are the ties we once had with the land and the waters, and that connection still has to play a role in how we figure this out.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Both of you talked about membership, and I think that's important. In fact, Chief Laforme, you mentioned that you couldn't inform your membership. That's an awful thing to have to say. They need to understand what's going on, right? So if you can't inform them, how are we going to get...? You know what I'm saying?

[Chief Stacey Laforme]

Absolutely. The conversation that needs to happen with the government, whether they come and present to the community or however it's done, is that there has to be a method for the members to be brought along with the process. In the past, we always thought we couldn't talk about anything that was ongoing. We thought we had to keep it quiet, not mention any numbers, not talk about what it could be, where we were at, whether or not we were including the Toronto Islands. We thought we couldn't talk about any of that until we reached a certain stage. That was my understanding of the negotiating process when we went through it. That simply does not work, and I would not be a party to that anymore regardless of what the outcome might be.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I agree. What about you, Grand Chief?

[Grand Chief Abram Benedict]

Going back to some of the LLBs in the room, it's kind of like an attorney-client privilege that exists. We are the representatives of 12,000 people, so there aren't any state secrets going on. We've been able to massage this issue a bit. Again, it's relationship building that exists at the table, how far this can go.

Obviously, the concern today is that there are arguably stakeholders, and people interested in the areas of claims, who are non-indigenous people. We have seen, sometimes, those people, when they don't know, making up things, and sometimes it ends up being a negative situation. There's a balance in that, and that's the approach we have taken in the past.

When it comes down to the paper, there's privileged stuff. I don't view it as a hurdle, but again, it's the negotiators. Every person sitting across the table on behalf of the government is different in many of these files.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

I think we're all done.

I want to thank you very much for coming out, presenting to us, being patient, and very informative. Your passion for your people is very clear. We will take your words to heart, and to pen and paper, and our analysts will prepare a report for all of Canada to see.

Chief Laforme.

[Chief Stacey Laforme]

Just one really quick thing.

As you can see, there are massive movements by first nations across the land to improve their way of life and do things better. For our first nation, we're taking enormous strides, and doing so much within our treaty lands and territories, and you have to keep pace. Otherwise, we're going to find ourselves in situations that don't work, and have conflicts. It's very important that the government and the land claims processes keep pace with this initiative.

[The Chair, Liberal, MaryAnn Mihychuk]

Meegwetch. Safe travels.

That concludes this meeting.