Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

I think you know that UNDRIP is a recognition of the human rights of indigenous peoples, but ultimately what the Tsilhqot’in identified was that title exists. First and foremost, in terms of free, prior and informed consent, it really demonstrates that no government has a veto. This is what I stated when I spoke in the legislature of British Columbia in Victoria when we passed the bill, that within the declaration there would be a space created where all governments would come together and we would make the decision together in terms of identifying the best way forward, whether it's yes, no or whatever, for any development project. Really, I think it's a recognition that our authority is there. It equalizes everything in terms of our sovereignty and our self-determination as indigenous peoples.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

My understanding from the Tsilhqot'in decision is that the province has a right to regulate land use in the public interest. This is, however, federal legislation. How do you envision that federal legislation being compatible with the provincial right to regulate with respect to land use in the public interest? Is there going to be a clash of jurisdictions in implementing this?

Maybe we can have President Swampy to begin and then the B.C. Council. I'm not sure if Mr. Calla has some comment on that.

[Dale Swampy]

In my opinion—and this comes from a lot of evaluation as to what UNDRIP's potential can become—the legislation is ambiguous at best. It's going to create a lot of legal conflict between provinces, first nations and the federal government. We're worried that this legislation is not being developed to enhance our ability to participate in the economy and in Canadian society as it should. We believe that it's a front for passing legislation, passing motions, and passing policy to incorporate environmental restrictions on our natural resource industry. I think this is very detrimental to both our natural resource industry and our first nations that want to become part of the society and part of the economic structure within Canada. We are worried. Because the legislation doesn't enhance our first nations rights, what is its use? Is it really going to enhance our ability to stop racism? We think racism is a social ill associated with poverty. We believe that a lot of the social ills that exist within our communities come from the fact that we live in abject poverty. We are out to defeat that, but we cannot defeat that if there's another barrier to investments in the natural resource industry in Canada, which UNDRIP does provide.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Chief Teegee or Mr. Calla—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Be very brief. You have 10 seconds.

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

This would complement Bill 41, which is already law here in British Columbia, and all we've seen is benefits from passing the law here in British Columbia with certainty and predictability within the industry. The B.C. Business Council and the Federation of Labour amongst many other federations out there already support Bill 41.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you very much.

Madam Bérubé, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Ms. Gill will be speaking, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Sorry, Madam Gill. Please go ahead.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I understand completely. We will get used to it. I assumed it was my turn.

I thank all the witnesses who are with us. I find it very interesting to hear the nuances expressed by everyone about Bill C-15.

My question is for all of the witnesses.

It was pointed out a few times that the bill would not expand the scope of first nations rights. On the other hand, it is said that passing it would be harmful. Excuse the candour of my question, but if nothing changes, how could it be worse?

I would like Mr. Swampy, Teegee or Calla to explain it to me in a concrete way. I thank you.

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

I can go first, I suppose.

I suppose what the declaration does is that it changes the relationship with all levels of government. Really, we have already been through many court cases. We have been through social disruption. We have been through the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples. We know what the problem is. It's the fact that governments deny our rights.

For the most part, in terms of what UNDRIP does, I really believe it doesn't give us more rights or do anything special. Really, it aligns the laws to recognize the indigenous rights of indigenous peoples to self-govern and their sovereignty and self-determination. Changing that relationship between governments will allow our people to flourish not only with economic development but also with changing laws for taking care of our children and for health care and policing. We have just seen all the issues with policing. We need to take jurisdiction. This is an overarching bill that can do that. We can have alignment of many laws out there.

I'm the chair of the chiefs committee on economic development. Certainly, this allows for industry to have more predictability and more certainty in terms of projects. This is where we need to come together and not end up in court or have some other mechanism to realize that certainty.

Thank you.

[Dale Swampy]

I just want to say that the government's commitment to reconciliation, to working with first nations to resolve the kinds of problems that exist right now, is unprecedented. I think they are doing a great job in trying to work with first nations communities and leaders to enhance our ability to be able to become part of Canada. I think that's very important.

We would like to see the enhancement of our natural resource industry and our participation in the natural resource industry. I think the only way to do that is to empower the people who protect the environment and who have a direct tie to the environment so deeply. That's the indigenous people. Empower them to be able to control natural resource industry development. Give them ownership of natural resource development. Give them participation or the duty to consult or the requirement to be on page with local developments within their area. Have them lead it. The 13 bills in Congress in the Alaska territory that enhanced the tribal nations' ability to be able to own natural resources proved to be very advantageous for the tribes in Alaska.

We can do that in Canada. We can give our people ownership of the natural resources. We can protect the natural resources because we are tied to the natural resources. We have been for thousands and thousands of years. I think that's one of the goals I would like to see happen with the action plan, to develop a process to allow us to be able to get ownership of our natural resources.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

You have one minute left.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

This will be very brief.

[Harold Calla]

If I might, to answer the question, it starts with recognition, as Chief Teegee has said. We spend a lot of time talking about the resource industry. I think we all have to become aware of the emergence of ESG as a principle that will impact resource development around the world, and [Technical difficulty—Editor] in that process will be fundamental. I think bringing clarity, and starting to bring clarity through this piece of legislation, will help in that process.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I'm glad to see that there is agreement that the bill is positive, despite all of the demands that have been made.

Mr. Chair, I guess my time is up. So I thank the witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you very much.

Now we go to Ms. Gazan for six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Regional Chief Teegee, your province of B.C. has passed UNDRIPA, but due to the failure of the B.C. government to uphold the human rights contained within the declaration in regard to obtaining the free, prior and informed consent of indigenous people with current resource projects, many concerns have been raised about whether the implementation of UNDRIPA will result in a renewed relationship with indigenous peoples that is grounded in human rights.

You have spoken a little bit about this. Why do you still have faith, considering what's currently going on in B.C.? Do you believe the implementation of UNDRIPA is still a valid step forward, given the current climate in the province?

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

Well, I think what you're speaking of are some of the projects that existed pre Bill 41. Sadly, it isn't retroactive in terms of the decisions that were made many years ago. Rather, it's forward looking.

This being a bill that was born out of Bill C-262—and certainly we appreciate Romeo Saganash's work on this private member's bill—I really believe that this is a place where we can change that relationship in terms of recognizing human rights, indigenous rights and our ability for our sovereignty and self-determination. I believe that. Here in British Columbia, we have been and are right now working on the alignment of laws and the action plan. It has been well over 15 months.

With this bill and our experience here in British Columbia, if it does pass, we need to start the action plan as soon as we can—within 18 months, not three years—and we need the resourcing for this to make sure that it's fully implemented the way it is meant to be, as when this was first passed many years ago, in September 2007. I think that is what we're trying to do here in British Columbia.

The point I'm trying to make is that here in British Columbia there was no real instruction or manual on how to implement this. We've developed a process, and now it's working.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

On that, I know that there have been many questions around Bill C-15 and the action plan. Certainly, concerns were raised. I know that with Bill 41 there was no specific timeline mentioned. In the development of the action plan, what are some of the challenges you're experiencing right now and just the lessons learned as we move forward, hopefully, with Bill C-15?

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

Well, on the development of the action plan, we started as soon as the bill was passed; however, the pandemic didn't help matters in the past year. We've nearly completed the action plan. The alignment of laws is really what we're working on right now, especially on child welfare.

One of the bills we worked on—that I worked on and was a lead on—was the environmental assessment bill, where the amendments were made that allowed for first nations to implement their own environmental assessment process. We need that law to align with UNDRIP, where we can get to free, prior and informed consent and make decisions together.

My background is forestry. I'm a former registered professional forester. We've been working on the Forest and Range Practices Act and a number of acts out there that currently are in development for amendments with regard to the province's acts, such as the Police Act, where we fully well know that indigenous people need to be a part of that discussion.

Perhaps moving forward we need to look at the health act here in this province. This pandemic showed us the shortfalls of society and how governments really treat indigenous peoples in this country and in this province.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

My last question to you goes back to what you were talking about on decision-making agreements. Section 7 of Bill 41 affirms the process for decision-making agreements. Can you share with us why this is important?

I'm going to give you an example, one that certainly I've talked about a lot. In Wet'suwet'en territory, there's an ongoing division between hereditary and band council chiefs in regard to the LNG project. What does this specific provision allow in this circumstance?

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

Well, I think those issues need to be worked out by themselves. A year ago we had a meeting that was to look at overlap in shared territories but was cut short because everybody was in lockdown right in the middle of that meeting.

Our people have to address these issues on our own. It was well stated there. I think the Wet'suwet'en.... As a result of the court case that my family was a part of, the Delgamuukw-Gisday'wa court case, it was really demonstrated that aboriginal rights exist. It comes back to our indigenous peoples to work those issues out in terms of band councils versus hereditary chiefs and how decisions are made.

Now, UNDRIP would allow that in terms of what really I think always existed, which was that hereditary chiefs' right to make the decisions in our own traditional governments is recognized, so I think it really comes back upon us to work out those issues. I think UNDRIP allows us the recognition that hereditary chiefs and our traditional governments have decision-making authority.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes. I had the privilege of working with the national Centre for First Nations Governance for a number of years. Would you say the issue is more related to indigenous peoples making decisions on their own internal governance, in terms of a clearer way to proceed forward, rather than arguments around FPIC?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Be brief, please.