Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 4th, 2021

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Mr. Beaulieu, in my very limited time, what you're saying is that the addition of a $15—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

I'm sorry, Mr. van Koeverden. We're out of time now. We're past six minutes.

Madam Bérubé, you have six minutes. Please go ahead.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am on the territory of the Cree and Anishinaabe of Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou. It is a very large territory, covering almost half of Quebec.

My sincere thanks to the witnesses for joining us. Their testimony is very valuable.

The Fédération des coopératives du Nouveau-Québec, represented by Mr. Lelievre, belongs to a group of 14 member co-operatives from Inuit communities located along the coasts of Hudson Bay and Ungava Bay, all the way to Nunavik. So I would like to ask Mr. Lelievre a question.

Mr. Lelievre, earlier, you mentioned non-refrigerated transportation. Can you elaborate on that and on the potential impact in relation to what you have told us?

Can you give us some examples of infrastructure issues and what could be improved?

[Daniel Lelievre]

Right now, the nutrition north Canada program causes a big price increase for certain categories of food, such as fresh milk.

When transporting fresh milk to Salluit, we have to consider the delays in loading the plane in Montreal. This means that the milk can be unrefrigerated for six to seven hours. Occasionally, the plane has to return to the Montreal airport because of changing weather conditions. Products very often have to be thrown in the garbage before they even reach the shelves. This causes a significant increase in cost. In small communities of 150 or 200 people, when two deliveries of milk are thrown away, the impact on the profitability of the co-operatives is significant. So they may look for extra profit to compensate, because the infrastructure is not adequate. This results in additional losses, which could be avoided if the infrastructure were better in terms of storage or of transportation by air or boat.

Right now, everything is very expensive. The nutrition north Canada program helps us a lot, it's true, but increasing the sales of certain products does not necessarily mean profitability for the co-ops. For example, repairing a refrigerator is very expensive. Each time a refrigerator breaks down in a co-op, it costs an average of $3,000 to $5,000 for the actual repair and for the return transportation of a technician from the south. For a small village of 200 people, that is a huge cost.

Everyone focuses on transportation, but it's not the only thing to consider. Local labour and labour from the south are very expensive. That contributes a lot to the increase in prices. I always talk about food, because that's what I know best, but the fact that infrastructure is not keeping up with the demographics has a tremendous impact on everything else.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Do you believe that the nutrition north Canada program should be reviewed so that we can ultimately reduce food insecurity?

[Daniel Lelievre]

Of course, every program must be reviewed regularly, but we must have reliable statistics if we want to make the right decisions. If the decisions are made too quickly, we can end up with negative consequences. I would say that the nutrition north Canada program is still good for Nunavik right now. However, it is different for Nunavut.

From my point of view, the biggest problem remains the personal purchases of products ordered from Montreal, for example. The revenue goes to outside businesses, not those in Nunavik. When consumers order from the south, they do not participate in the economic development of their community. The repercussions are not huge, but they are still quite significant. People need to be made aware of the fact that buying from outside has an impact on the development of communities, which could otherwise have more local jobs. I think that is what needs to be reviewed.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Have you noticed an increase in the current crisis?

[Daniel Lelievre]

The co-operatives have seen a nice increase in sales during the pandemic. This is mainly because people from Nunavik could not travel to the south, at least not easily. They were therefore forced to buy local.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

What do you think the government should do to ensure food security for all northerners and indigenous people, regardless of their socio-economic status?

[Daniel Lelievre]

Increasing the guaranteed minimum income is a good solution. Poverty comes in different forms in Nunavik, as you mentioned. The minimum income should be increased there. Many people earn less than $30,000 per year and have four or five children. That is very expensive.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Earlier, we talked about increasing income, about the importance of increasing support, but there is also traditional food. In your opinion, what is the situation in northern Quebec?

[Daniel Lelievre]

In northern Quebec, traditional food—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Please make it short.

[Daniel Lelievre]

In northern Quebec, traditional food is made only locally. No company smokes char or cuts meat. It is only done between villages at this time.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

I'm sorry. We're well over, and we have lots of business to continue to. Thank you for that.

Ms. Ashton, you have six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

First, to all of the witnesses today, thank you. Many of you have referenced the dire infrastructure needs across the north and of course how it impacts the work you do. You've talked about the impacts on the cost of shipping. You've also talked about how climate change is hitting the north. As anyone working in Manitoba knows, first nations across the east side of Manitoba have worked tirelessly, over a number of years, to try to realize long-term infrastructure solutions—specifically, the construction of an all-weather road. I want to acknowledge that Bloodvein and Berens River first nations were able to get the road built before the provincial government cut the program and of course the federal government stepped away as well.

Of course, the North West Company would know the circumstances or the work that first nations have done on this front, because you have stores in every single one of these communities that are still fighting for an all-weather road—Pauingassi, Little Grand Rapids, Poplar River First Nation, St. Theresa Point, Garden Hill, Wasagamack, Red Sucker Lake, Oxford House, God's Lake Narrows and Gods River. All of these first nations were slated to build all-weather roads themselves, along with the work of others, and of course it's been devastating to not have that project come to fruition. We know that climate change has hit hard, further isolating these communities. We know that the COVID-19 crisis has also exacerbated isolation and has had impacts in terms of food insecurity.

To the North West Company representatives, the goal of this meeting is to bring forward recommendations to the federal government. Of course, it's important to have recommendations that are in line with what first nations are calling for and recommendations that really look towards the long-term well-being of these communities.

Would you support the call of east-side first nations for federal support—and, of course, provincial government support, but the focus here is the federal government—for the construction of an all-weather road along the east side of Lake Winnipeg as a way of dealing with food insecurity and overall well-being?

[Alex Yeo]

Thank you, Ms. Ashton, for the question. We'd support any infrastructure investment, including the projects you mentioned, that would address the underlying costs of operating northern food security. Obviously, all-weather road access is one, but there are other forms of infrastructure investment that are just as important for the northern communities that we serve.

One example would be the move to renewable or more reliable sources of energy. One example I can share with you is in Pikangikum. The move from diesel-generated power to line power has made a huge improvement in the food security of that community. Their breakdowns and their brownouts are much fewer, with therefore less wear and tear on their appliances and houses. That's one example. Another example would be the investment in community freezers in the north so that local food and local food production can be used as part of the food sources.

Yes, we would support and definitely be part of any form of infrastructure investment, especially a broad infrastructure investment program that really addresses the underlying issues I've highlighted around income security and food insecurity.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I appreciate that.

Of course, all of these first nations I just referenced are already on the hydro line, so really, the need for an east-side road is top of mind.

I referenced Pauingassi. This is a first nation that received national attention during the COVID crisis. They don't have an all-weather road, and an acute COVID patient ended up waiting 17 hours for a helicopter to land on the ice. These conditions are, I think we can agree, unacceptable, and whether it's in terms of food security or broader life-and-death issues, there needs to be a long-term solution here. I appreciate your response on that.

Again to the North West Company, I want to acknowledge, of course, that we know that high costs are a real concern, and often we see on social media people sharing the high cost of goods in northern stores to call for action. For example, in July of 2020, during the pandemic, in Arctic Bay, many people spoke out against the fact that a package of baby wipes was priced at $31.25, a shocking figure.

I understand that the North West Company took steps to apologize, but that was only after this came to light through social media. It shouldn't have to take people taking to social media to expose such an unfair practice.

What does the northern store have in place to make sure that the prices you are charging are, in fact, fair practices, in line with the subsidies you receive so that it's not only when social media storms hit that we see action from your company?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

You have just half a minute.

Go ahead, sir.

[Alex Yeo]

Thank you for the question.

I'll start by saying that, during COVID, we've been especially sensitive to the issue of food prices. We froze prices for 60 days after COVID hit, and we didn't take any cost increases and pass them through. We pass through all freight subsidies from NNC, and we do not take a single cent. We audited it, and that's been proven. The last piece I would say is that, as a whole in the company, we make four cents on the dollar for every dollar of revenue because of the high operating costs I've referenced.

Are we perfect? No, there will be some examples where we've made mistakes in terms of our own systems, but that is never intentional and we've always learned from it and put controls in place to ensure that those kinds of mistakes, in terms of the way the prices are communicated, don't get repeated again. Those examples, as we've said, we've apologized for, but those were unintended. We've always corrected them, even as soon as we've noticed them on the shelves. We do not take any unintended profits, and we've taken the right steps during COVID to ensure that the customers we serve are taken care of.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you.

I'm going to ask the committee's indulgence. We're almost at noon, so I'm going to suggest that we have an intervention from each of the parties for the five-minute and two-and-a-half-minute round, which would be Mr. Viersen, Ms. Jones, Madam Bérubé and Ms. Ashton. If there is no opposition to that, because we still have another panel to go, then I propose that we proceed in that manner.

Is everyone okay with that? I'll take that as a yes.

Mr. Viersen, you have five minutes.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today.

I want to pick up on a comment that Mr. Thorhaug made about northern Iqaluit when he talked to us about northern food production. I've been to Iqaluit once, along with Mr. Anandasangaree. We went there together with the committee a couple of years back, and that was a comment that I made as we left there around northern food production. We heard that, for the last 100,000 years, there had been 14,000 people living in northern Canada and they survived, yet today, those people seem to be struggling to get food. I asked, “Where's all the local food production? What happened to it?” He commented about that as well. I wonder if Mr. Thorhaug has any ideas about how we can restore that northern food production, one idea in particular or maybe a broader strategy on that.

Go ahead, Mr. Thorhaug.

[Wade Thorhaug]

Thank you for the question.

The reasons for the lack of capacity in local food production are numerous. They go back to our colonial history, to the forced settlements and communities and to the dog slaughter, but the biggest reason today is that it's been hard to reconcile food production, harvesting and hunting activities with the wage economy. A lot of hunters who are operating now are doing this on a part-time basis. They have to find sources of revenue elsewhere, say from a spouse or from a full-time job. They're not able to pursue this as a full-time profession or a full-time activity.

There was a point in the not-too-distant past when a hunter could generate revenue through the sale of furs. Now the price of furs is continuously declining. There isn't really a market for that anymore, so their sources of revenue are essentially nil. That's why we are looking at ways to return hunting to what it once was, the most respected profession in the community. I don't know the exact mechanism to do this, but there are a few ideas that have been floated. One is that we provide a salary to hunters and they provide the food freely to communities. There have already been some pilots that have shown the benefits to communities more than outweigh the cost of the salary. In the meantime, there could be smaller-scale ways that we could support hunters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Wilson had his hand up, Mr. Viersen.

Mr. Wilson, go ahead.